Thursday 1 July 2004, by Anonymous :

Omg, one admin used the donation money to buy a new car?!?!

Friday 2 July 2004, by Anonymous :

godammit, people suck

Friday 2 July 2004, by :

Those pieces of shit. I just knew that money wasn’t for Angel.

Friday 2 July 2004, by Me :

Isn’t it disgusting how people can’t just leave good intentions alone. It’s no wonder this campaign wasn’t successful, look at the type of people running it...and if these accusations are a lie, lady get a life.

Friday 2 July 2004, by wicca :

I don’t believe Simon! Since when does AOL provide such excellent service that in less than a day’s time a spam report could make it to the host of his website and result in termination of service? That just screams bogus!

Since when does a web host or AOL reveal the identity of people who submit spam reports to them? Privacy laws prevent them from doing so.

Since when would a spam report from ONLY one person result in the termination of someone’s website?

I don’t see any evidence that the contest has been moved to a *for profit site* or that’s there’s any intent to make any money off of the contest.

This is just one more of several campaigns previously associated with Save Angel who decided to leave due to being uncomfortable with how the site operates or due to lack of any real support while it took credit for other peoples work.

I also find it odd that Simon would target one person and give out their real name, age, and where they live to the public. He’s also given out her email address although thankfully its not included here.

It’s a tactic often used intimidate and threaten a whistle-blower. She’s not the only person to question the motives of Save Angel. She’s just the first from his inner circle to do so publicly.

Friday 2 July 2004, by Anonymous :

I bet Angel would be back next year if they had used all the money the way they were supposed too!!! Damn them.

Friday 2 July 2004, by Mcatwag :

Why do I have to post to read the forum? Anyway, wanted to thank everyone for the support, it has been overwheling to put it mildly.

Friday 2 July 2004, by Anonymous :

Oh, and ya anyone who is curious who owns rememberangel go to

It is in fact a fan site only - not a campaign - and does not, nor will it ever accept donations.

Friday 2 July 2004, by Save Angel Supporter :

No one used the money to buy anything outside the campaign. The individuals slinging the mud are the same ones who took the prizes from the campaign, created their own website, and then, with those same prizes, started their own contest.

Now tell me, how shady is that? Pretty darn shady if you ask me.

Friday 2 July 2004, by mcatwag :

How do I read the posts?

Friday 2 July 2004, by Manuel :

It seems to me that it makes sense that the allegations of missappropriated funds is a lie. We all saw the ads, billboards and candy bars. All that took money. I can’t see how they could buy all that stuff and still buy a new car. It sounds like the person making allegations is just bitter for being fired. —Manuel Norwalk, CA

Friday 2 July 2004, by wicca :

Manuel - The ads, billboards and candy bars were all the accomplishments of The current allegations are against Please don’t get them confused. They are VERY different campaigns.

I’m curious, what exactly has Save Angel really done for fans? I mean, the site has some useful information and the message boards provide a place for fans to talk, but what have they actually done? Alot of the energy seems to be focused on self-promotion of the website and not on actual campaigns.

Friday 2 July 2004, by Anonymous :

The adds, candy bars, billboard trucks were from, a complete different website

Friday 2 July 2004, by Anonymous : is auctioning off various Angel items and selling various items. Where is that money going?

As for the harrassment of the person who posted the allegations: you reap what you sow. You can’t sling mud and not expect it to come flying back at you. If you can’t stand the heat.....

Saturday 3 July 2004, by I’m everywhere :

Tisk, tisk children

Saturday 3 July 2004, by Buffy-aholic :

I can’t believe that these former saveangel people ruined the contest at saveangel. Way to mess up a perfectly good contest. (Note the sarcasm)

Saturday 3 July 2004, by HeKS :

All of you who think that this allegation by mcatwag was made because she was bitter for being "fired" have no idea what you’re talking about.

I’m not going to make any claims of car purchases . . . I have no proof. I’m not going to personally make any comments about the unethical allocation of funds . . . though I will say that I have heard from a source that I have no reason to consider unreliable, that a LARGE sum of money donated to the site has been stolen. It’s up to you to believe whether that’s true or not.

What I will tell you, for a certainty, is that mcatwag (along with jancie and a few others) were NOT fired from the contest committee or site. They resigned. Why? Because they were concerned about the efforts being made to turn the contest (shortly down the road) into a fund-raising/for profit endeavour . . . which was explicitly against the wishes of David as he stated them when he donated the script. In addition to this, the site administrator refused to be accountable to the group of strategists if and when further donations came in. He insisted that he alone would know the amounts of money generated from any fundraising activities and that he alone would be responsible for using those funds to further the campaign/site in whatever way he deemed appropriate, and that anyone who questioned him or his honesty could resign. Perhaps he would show a list of donations or funds raised after the fact, if we pushed . . . however, we have already heard comments from people who had donated several times that their names and amounts did not show up on the list of previous donations which he claims only came to a total of $1,300.

The reason that Mary and others quit is because they were genuinely worried about the fans of the site and felt that qutting - and thereby dissolving the contest committee - was the only way to ensure that it could not be used to take advantage of those who contributed written pieces to it.

It is true that a similar writing competition will take place at with many of the same prizes. However, that site is not run by Mary, Jancie or Pat as Simon would like you to believe . . . nor is it in any way a for-profit site to scam fans. It is run by someone in the TV/movie industry who represents/works with at least one of the actors on the show and the site is paid for by that person’s company. The site will not accept donations from fans. As far as auctions and merchandise selling . . . does it not seem strange to you that these people bashing Mary would try to use the sale of merchandise or auctions as a way to raise suspicion? When you go to the mall and buy a jacket, or a pair of pants, do you come home and ask yourself, "I wonder if the store is using the money I paid them for my purchase to cover their store expenses and make a profit"? Of course that’s what they’re doing, but that’s not unethical because you have gotten something in return for your money. You knew it would cost you something to get the item you wanted, so you paid that amount and got what you wanted. That is not unethical. What is unethical is if you went to the store to pre-order something, paid for it up-front, and the person you gave your money to pocketed it and you never got what you purchased. I’m not sure what will do with the money they get from auctions and merchandise sale - it will likely go to offset the costs of running the site and then either be counted as profit or donated to a charity. But in either case, making things fans want available for purchase is very different from asking you to donate money that you will never benefit from or receive anything for and have no way of being sure how it is going to be used. So, in short, is not in any way a for-profit business in the fashion that Simon apparently would like you to believe. It is a site for fans to come to to discuss Angel without the pressure of having to carry out any campaigning or being asked to give away their hard earned money for nebulous campaign ideas that will never fully be disclosed. That is a reputable site and haven for the fans can be seen by the fact that the stars and prize contributors still support it while they asked for their contributions to be removed from And contrary to Simon’s claims, these strats did not use the site’s good name to make inappropriate contact with the stars. The campaign sites had already lost most of their credibility with those involved in the show because of recent scandals. The strats managed to secure contributions for the contest because of their own personal professional way of dealing with the actors and other contributors. After that initial contact however, Simon continued to contact them, and THAT contact lead to many of the contributors withdrawing their contributions. While I have heard this information second-hand, I have heard it from someone in direct contact with the actors and contributors who has dealt with their complaints. Again though, it is up to you whether to believe this or not.

Having worked as a strategist at from around March till the present, I did not openly opose Simon because I felt that such dissention would only serve to confuse and upset the fans/members of the site (in fact, those fans are the main reason that the remaining strats have stayed on the board). I instead tried to persuade him to do things in a different manner which I felt would be more appropriate, would raise the level of accountability between all of us and would generally serve the fans better. My efforts resulted in a few fruitless discussions and nothing ever really happened. I was still going to stay on for the time in spite of his seeming refusal to seriously consider my (and others) suggestions, but his recent attack on Mary and his providing her personal information for everyone to see was the last straw. Why do you think he did that? He wanted to direct the fan anger at her instead of at himself. As far as I’m concerned, that stunt proved his guilt to me (even though I doubted his guilt up until that point). An innocent person would have calmly responded to the accusations and provided detailed records to prove their innocence. An innocent person may have been angered by the accusations but would never have stooped to such a level as Simon has.

If I were to make an educated guess, I would say that the site being down is mostly an act. During my time as a strategist, any posts that directly questioned or criticized Simon (even just within the strategist and management forums that were not visible to the members at large) were censored and removed at his earliest convenience. That is the reason that Mary posted her comments in virtually every forum . . . she wanted to make sure she had a chance to warn the fans before Simon had a chance to remove her comments. So the reason I say I think the site being down is mostly an act is because if the site and forums were up, this topic would be under discussion everywhere and the information would get to most of the members of the site too fast for the Admins to censor it. The only way to stop it would be to shut down the forums completely until things had died down a bit. But if you don’t want to raise suspicion of guilt in yourself, how do you explain shutting down your fan discussion forums while the rest of your site is up? It would be virtually impossible. So what’s the logical solution? Shut down the whole site. But wouldn’t that look a little suspicious too? What’s the solution? Deny the accusations outright, shut down the site so the general members can’t discuss or ask questions, blame the person who made the accusations for the site being shut down (because of supposed aol spam reports from one person, for one day) and give out all their personal information, telling fans she maliciously harmed the site and had it shut down because she was fired or not doing her job (when she actually quit to stop the fans from being taken advantage of), then releasing an official statement to this board claiming every accusation is false and is for the purpose of personal gain.

It’s a pretty good idea if that’s what he did. I might have believed it myself had I not been present for all the conversations leading up to each of their resignations and had I not been fighting Simon for the same reasons they were.

To conclude, Mary probably shouldn’t have mentioned the thing about the car (as she herself admits) because, as far as I know, she doesn’t have proof of it in her hands. But it should be said that, even if it turned out not to be true, she did not wilfully attempt to present false accusations because we have both been told separately that there is actual paper proof of this. She made the statement in anger, but in good conscience, with no desire to mislead anyone. You may also notice that she didn’t mention Simon as being the one who bought the car, she simply said ’Why don’t you ask the administration which of them bought a new car with the funds?’. Simon didn’t ask who she was accusing, he simply took the accusation as being directed at him and said she was lying and that he had not done it. I’m not saying this constitutes proof . . . I’m just saying it’s interesting. In either case, you should all realize that Mary made those accusations with pure intentions to protect the fans and ensure that they did not send any money to the site for fundraising purposes since Simon would not institute a suitable arrangement that would allow for full disclosure to the group for the purposes or preventing any misuse of funds. As she said in her message, if you want to contribute, buy the DVDs . . . don’t donate to a site.

For my part, I’m waiting for to be back up so I can enter my resignation, you know here why I’m doing it, and at least here I know that my statements won’t be censored to prevent doubt being cast on that administration.

Saturday 3 July 2004, by Anonymous :

Simon is no Saint. I don’t think we’ll never know what really happened. I do know that this isn’t the first time Save Angel’s practices have come under question. However, these allegations lack solid evidence. So, neither side comes out looking good.

It is wrong to publish someone’s contact information on a public site with a message designed to incite people into harassing that individual. Responding to what you believe is an act of libel with harassment is not justified. Having seen the message, there is no way Simon can convince me that he acted appropriately.

Thanks to Mary, every other campaign is tainted because she not only talked about Save Angel, but also besmirched the reputation of all campaigns since there’s an unnamed second site being accused of misdeeds. How are those of us who still want to fight the good fight going to proceed?

If there is evidence to support these claims bring it forward for everyone to see. If not, thanks for the mess.

Sunday 4 July 2004, by HeKS :

I’m fairly sure that the unnamed second site is As far as what you can do if you want to keep campaigning . . . the answer is simple, continue to do what you have been doing through the sites you’ve been using. For all the scandals and allegations, both and have accomplished some real good in raising awareness of the site. It’s unfortunate that the way in which they were managed in some areas has created the problems it has, but that fact (and those scandals) don’t preclude the efforts of those on the site doing some good. The fact of the matter is that it’s the fans and members of those sites that really get things done, you are the masses with the ultimate power to help get more stories from the whedonverse and to promote the projects he’s currently working on. The "save" sites are a good place for the fans who want to campaign to group together and work together. The only thing you have to make sure about is not to donate money directly to these sites. Don’t give the administration the opportunity to take advantage of you in that way. Instead, just use their sites as forum for developing ideas and organizing yourselves to do whatever you can to raise awareness of the show and it’s outstanding quality.

The fact of the matter is, it takes a LOT of money to get anything done in hollywood or in the industry in general. The combined (assumed) donations of all sites put together might have been enough to buy one tv add for example. It’s a testament to the show that fans were willing to donate their money to see more . . . and that fact has been proven. But now it’s time to come to grips with the fact that donations are not going to do much other than keep a site going so the person running it doesn’t have to pay out of pocket . . . the problem is, you have no idea how to be sure how much has been donated or how high the expenses are. Say the yearly expense for running the site is $300 . . . then imagine 300 people donating $50 each out of the goodness of their heart to help cover the expenses of running the site. With that kind of donation, the site is paid for the year and there’s a surplus of $14,700. What’s gonna happen with that money? How will everyone know how much has been donated? Will the administrator be honest enough to take only $1 doller from each of the contributors and send back the rest of their donations? What if the site closes down 2 months down the road? Where is that money going? You simply can’t be sure . . . so if you want to donate, buy DVD’s. That’s what’s gonna show people interest in the show. From what I’ve read, it was the successful performance of the original Buffy movie on home video that led to the creation of the TV series, because it showed the interest was there. There’s no reason we can’t do the reverse and show our interest in a movie by buying and renting the DVDs of the show.

Sunday 4 July 2004, by Anonymous :

It has been said that the money will likely go to charity or towards the running of the website but one cannot be sure. I have been informed that people have asked where the money at rememberangel will go only to have their posts deleted by a moderator. While I wish the website nothing but success, it does leave me concerned especially as I am against fans parting with their money.

When working in campaigning, someone has to take the lead and make decisions and I assume that person is Simon as he is the owner of the website. I have been led to believe that a small number of people disagree with his decisions but any leader who tries to make every person happy is always going to fail. A good leader is always going to be disliked at some point by those that work beneath them. It sounds like staff members put their ideas forward only to have Simon disagree with them. I cannot help but feel that some people took that personally and are now on a crusade to attack his personality and anything he is associated with, simply because they are hurt. Hurt is a strong emotion that leads us to do some frightful things on the spur of the moment, but we all have a brain, and thinking before acting may have been better in this case.

Campaigning is not about feelings, it is about getting results and the fact that the person concerned was led by her emotions only highlights the fact that she was perhaps overwhelmed by her role on the campaign. I wish that person no offence for it is only an observation. It is a tough world we live in and this person’s actions have done nothing to unite the fans wanting more from Joss. For somebody who claims to be doing the fans a favor, that person has only hurt all involved and all those who put their faith in Save Angel.

I believe a retraction of the statement and a public apology from the lady concerned would resolve this, followed by an apology from Simon for releasing personal details. Although legal, if it has caused the person concerned upset, it would warrant an apology, also. That way, everyone can put this debacle behind them.

As for somebody making a large contribution to the campaign – I would very much like them to step forward with proof (any claim should be disregarded without said proof) as I am sure they have heard about the scandal and would like their money back. As yet, no one has come forward and I doubt very much that they will, simply because there probably has not been a large donation made, at least not enough to buy a vehicle. I await a response and proof with an open mind.

I can confirm that a person within the industry was contacted regarding the contest, and they expressed a concern for the validity of that person. After asking for an email to be sent, it was but it did not come from a email address. After being harassed by phone, the professional cut all contact. For the record, the person who claimed to be from saveangel was a female so that discounts Simon, unless he has a high pitched voice and likes to be known by a female’s name. Maybe that is just on his days off. Simon, I do hope you have a good sense of humor for I wish no offence.

Simon, I wish you and your team luck in whatever you decide to do in the future. You are admired for your staying power particularly under the immense pressure that comes with the territory. The GOTV campaign produced record-breaking results and has been praised by those within the industry. Despite what people may think, the increase in ratings did more for the show and Joss than the public probably realize. It was more effective than anything that came before or after it.

There are those who have followed the campaign, despite hectic schedules. They have supported it in the past and they will continue to do so should Save Angel proceed in the future. Once a convenient time presents itself, I am sure those people will be in touch with you personally. I hope this spurs you to continue doing the excellent work you and your team has been doing.

Sunday 4 July 2004, by AngelAngelAngelDoesEverythingHaveToBeAboutThatFreak? :

Why all the surprise? Save Angel’s use of funds has been questioned, loudly and extensively, since it’s inception.

Many fans, including myself, have been vocal in cautioning people not to donate to a site that has no clearly stated goal nor method of accounting for the donations it receives.

I am furious to hear the talk of campaigns, plural, that have misused donations. Just throwing that out, without explanation, is irresponsible.

There are reputable campaigns that raise funds for various goals. Was the intent to harm all campaigns because one campaign was dishonest?

Making accusations without naming names seems designed to make fans distrust all campaigns.

The fact the strategists who chose to be affiliated with Save Angel were duped does not mean other campaigns are dishonest.

Are we going to allow one man’s dishonesty to derail all campaigns? Are we going to allow the innuendo of those who were fooled to dictate the future of other campaigns?

Simon has been preening like a peacock from day one. Are we going to allow him to set the tone for how we work towards our goal of a future for Angel?

While this melodrama was unfolding, other sites and people were working hard to reach that goal. Those sites and those people don’t deserve to suffer because of this debacle.

Sunday 4 July 2004, by Prophet :

What HeKS has said in his/her post sheds some more light on what has been happening at I truly find it amazing that Simon wanted to keep the donation amounts to himself. If I were on that committee, it would surely make me suspicious of why he would want to keep that information to himself! That is not how a team operates. There is always sharing of information in what everyone does! Also, I don’t put it past Simon when Heks stated, "the site being down is mostly an act". I bet you it was an act!

I can also see why Mary and the others quit because they felt that they were deceiving the fans of the site. As it was stated by many people on this forum, it was truly wrong of Simon to publish her private information on his site!

As for the statement by Mary saying that "2 campaign sites have misappropriated said funds", We all would like to know by Mary or someone that was previously on’s committee as to whom they are accusing of misappropriating funds! I do not see any of the other sites that have been accepting donations of misappropriating funds. The GOOD sites that have been accepting donations for their particular campaigns have done what they set out on doing (as we have seen by the results) so we know that we can trust those GOOD sites! This is not fair to those GOOD sites that have been campaigning and continue to campaign to have their image tarnished like that! These GOOD sites rely on the fan’s donations for their campaigns and the fans should continue to trust those GOOD sites that continue to fight the good fight!!!

Sunday 4 July 2004, by Anonymous :

Rising stars is the owner of (check it here and manages the auctions and all the profit made of them and of the merchandise bought throw amazon is going to Rising stars. Quote from the main page "Staff (Senior partners)" "Rising Stars. Special attention must be served to the cast and crew of Rising Star for hosting this wonderful get together. With 20 years of dedication to the Celebs of this World, this team has taken time out of their already jam-packed days to give the fans the opportunity to celebrate the Angelverse here"

Sunday 4 July 2004, by Anonymous :

Mary said: "Joss & the Stars have repeatedly asked the fans not to make donations, becasue 2 campaign sites have misappropriated said funds."

I heard Joss and Stars express concerns over the money raised in terms of people donating who couldn’t afford it and because they knew that it was not likely to change the outcome. Joss has also told fans to "keep making noise" and several stars have said very positive things about the campaigns. Julie Benz praised Saving Angel and James Marsters praised Angel’s Food Drive.

I have NEVER read anywhere that Joss or the Stars wanted Saving Angel to stop raising money because of misappropriated funds. That smells like a rumor started by someone jealous of their campaign.

If you want to share details of your personal experiences with Save Angel that’s fine, but don’t drag other campaigns into it when you don’t have any first-hand knowledge of how they ran their sites.

Sunday 4 July 2004, by Julian :

I would like to make one thing very clear. REMEMBERANGEL.COM is NOT associated with SAVEANGEL.ORG OR SAVINGANGEL. ORG. RememberAngel is a dedication website designed for all the fans to be a part of. It is not a campaign site and regarding the auctions, those are official auctions and it is up to the fan to bid. no one is asking you to. There is no donations accepted and the contests are Official with Official prizes being given to the winners. There will also be Official Interviews with the cast, crew and etc from Angel as a few of them decided to back themselves out of the campaign issue and focus on the fans of the show. They want to give back to the fans as much as they are able. We encourage everyone to be a part of the website. You can submit anything, and just come and have fun, without spending money.

Sunday 4 July 2004, by Rising Stars :

Well, all I can say is you know something has gotten out of hand when I have to come over here and post a reply to allegations. Rising Stars does own RememberAngel. Here are the facts: * We do not accept donations * you do not have to bid on the auctions. * The interviews will be Official * We do not get money from Amazon. If you would like to check that out, please go to read their statements. * This site was produced, designed and originated after many of our clientele were being harassed and asked that there be a place on the internet where the fans could go and not have to worry about donations or listen to problems that may or may not be true. * As stated on the site, this is supported by many of the people of "Angel". We would never say all, because there were so many people who were apart of this great show. * This is a place for every single fan and the site will only get bigger as more fans become a part of the site. * Rising Stars did donate a box of things to saveangel for their contests but we later learned from the entire staff that they were arguing because the owner wanted to sell the items and not give them to the fans as it stated on the site. We were very upset and after speaking to many staff members, they asked if they could bring the contest over to RememberAngel so they could make sure the items were given out as they had promised. * My company and a few of our clients are taking legal action against Simon for false allegations, harassment, fraud, defamation of character, and more. * We have nothing to hide, so please email us, go to the site and make up your own mind. do not let anyone influence you, not even myself. again, We have nothing to hide and we encourage you to come and see for yourself. Sincerely, Rising Stars and Staff

Sunday 4 July 2004, by A disgusted fan :


First, we have people so naive they join forces with SaveAngel. Then, because SaveAngel turns out to be what it was apparent it was from the beginning, these same people take it upon themselves to decide how the future of campaigning should go.


We have assertions of "what Joss said." Seriously? These people have been in communication with Joss? Somehow, I’m doubting it.

If you were able to be duped by SaveAngel and silly enough to think you can interpret Joss’ thoughts for the fandom at large, I don’t think you’re people I’m interested in following.

And no, SaveAngel hasn’t done much in the fight to save the show. SavingAngel has. And now, you’re slinging mud at them.

Without one shred of evidence, without one shred of reason offered, you feel comfortable casting that accusation out to the fans.

SaveAngel is the only website I know that collects donations for "administrative costs." Most of the major campaigns pay that out of the pockets of those that are running the campaigns.

Did it occur to the people involved that there might have been a more effective, constructive way to address this problem?

Congratulations on exposing SaveAngel. Shame on you for feeling justified in casting a shadow on the rest of the campaigns, of which you obviously know nothing.

Sunday 4 July 2004, by Anonymous :

"The GOTV campaign produced record-breaking results and has been praised by those within the industry. Despite what people may think, the increase in ratings did more for the show and Joss than the public probably realize. It was more effective than anything that came before or after it."

Whoa! You’re giving Save Angel credit for increasing the show’s ratings?

Gee, cause it couldn’t have anything to do with the strength of the writing and acting this season or all the critical acclaim it received in the press this season or the news of the cancellation or the huge uproar of the fans or the resulting media attention or the fact that the WB finally got around to promoting the show once they decided to drop it.

No, it has to be due to a get out the view campaign that encouraged people to post on message boards, chat rooms and in emails all over the Internet. Plueeze!!!

I’m not saying that Save Angel doesn’t deserve some credit. All the fans and their various campaigns had an impact I’m sure, but the way you phrase it makes it sound like Save Angel is some sort of industry darling that deserves all the kudos.

Sunday 4 July 2004, by Anonymous :

Joss has " ... repeatedly asked the fans not to make donations, becasue 2 campaign sites have misappropriated said funds"??? In what alternate universe? Joss has never said anything like that.

Monday 5 July 2004, by Anonymous :

Well, well, well.

Now we have Remember Angel weighing in and, personally, this thing stinks from all angles.

We have a statement that this site was started because unnamed people associated with ANGEL wanted a place fans could go and not be harrassed or asked for donations.

What a bunch of bollocks! Let me rattle off a few names for you, Remember Angel, before you pat yourself on the back too heartily. The Bronze Beta, Whedonesque, City of Angel, Slayage, etc.

Do any of those ring a bell? If not you should check them out. After all, Joss and the writers do. How about the actor’s official websites? You want OFFICIAL? They’ll give you OFFICIAL.

We have Simon and Save Angel, we have Save Angel members who’ve left Save Angel and moved over to Remember Angel and we have Remember Angel, implying they have the stamp of approval of ME and the actors without any evidence to support that claim. We have Remember Angel claiming things will just get better and better as more and more fans join their site. Remember Angel’s rhetoric sounds strikingly familiar. It sounds, in fact, just like Simon and his declarations of his site’s importance.

I don’t know about the rest of you, but I’m staying as far away from this stinking pile of garbage as possible.

I give a vote of no faith to Save Angel, the people who’ve moved over to Remember Angel (while making accusations against not only the campaign they worked for, but other campaigns as well), and Remember Angel, which seems more than willing to make hay out of this entire mess.

You’re an embarrassment to ANGEL fans everywhere. Go away, all of you.

Monday 5 July 2004, by HeKS :

I received an email from Simon in which he claimed I was making countless accusations of misconduct against him. I have responded to him personally but I am also posting another message here to set certain things straight so that there is no confusion. These are the things I would like to clarify from my earlier post:

1) I did not claim that there was supposedly one large donation that may have been misused. IF anything was misused it is much more likely that it would have been many smaller donations, NOT one HUGE one.

2) I should not have said anything about the possibility of the problems being an act. I did not have any evidence to support that claim. I have been shown that there was indeed a technical issue that caused the site to be shut down and so I would like to apologize for that baseless musing. I would like to point out two things however: First, I did not claim that is WAS an act, only that I wouldn’t be surprised; Second, from the documentation Simon sent me to prove there was a technical problem I noticed that at the time of his blaming Mary for the site problems he had no evidence that it was in fact her fault. He based it on the fact that she was on the board at the time the report was sent to AOL and she had an AOL address . . . though to the best of my knowledge she wouldn’t have needed to be on board at the time. He may have found out by this point who it was, but if it was Mary I can say with a fair amount of certainty that she had no desire to hurt the site itself or any of the members on the board who she’s spent so much time working with and helping over the past few months.

3) I was not suggesting that Simon had a responsibility to prove his innocence. I was stating that it was unlikely that an innocent person would have responded to the accusations in the way he did and that IF he felt the need to respond to them he could have found a much more productive and ethical manner to do so then posting Mary’s personal info and blaming her for the site being down before he even had any proof that it was her fault.

4) I was not at any time accusing Simon of theft or purchasing a car with misappropriated funds. I do not personally have evidence of this in my possession so I would not make this claim. Rather, I was simply pointing out that Mary had reasons for thinking the accusations were true as she has been told by a reputable source she has no reason to doubt that they have evidence of this misconduct. Whether or not they actually have such evidence is something everyone will have to decide for themselves and which may come out with time.

My sole purpose in posting here was not to cast Simon in a negative light but to defend the reputation of the strategists that he was making inaccurate claims about. Had he not attacked their character and motives and had he not attacked the motives of and it’s owners I would likely not have made any public statements about this.

In the mean time, make use of the site at and don’t get pulled into the storm of rumors flying around. Just be careful about donating to any campaign site unless they have a reliable structure of accountability when it comes to handling donations.

As far as sites like angelsfooddrive and stuff like that . . . they’ve done some great work and seem very reputable and trustworthy from what I’ve heard. But I’m not going to personally endorse donating to any campaign. That’s something everyone must decided for themselves based on whether they are comfortable with the way the site is prepared to deal with donations.

As far as the second site that’s been questioned . . . as I said in my last post, I believe it was that was being referred to. A number of people have expressed suspicion at certain unlikely expenses for seemingly good reasons. . . but I’ve never been involved in the management there and I have no idea how they’re set up so I’m not going to say any more about them or any other site that I was not involved in.

Take care, and as Mary said: Campaign hard, but campaign smart.

Monday 5 July 2004, by Anonymous :

Quote from unnamed poster:

"Simon, I wish you and your team luck in whatever you decide to do in the future. You are admired for your staying power particularly under the immense pressure that comes with the territory. The GOTV campaign produced record-breaking results and has been praised by those within the industry. Despite what people may think, the increase in ratings did more for the show and Joss than the public probably realize. It was more effective than anything that came before or after it."

I’m ROTFLMAO! Do you actually believe that drivel? GOTV was an ineffectual campaign. You think people printing off Simon’s little flyers actually impacted the ratings?

Ah, the big claims of little people. And once again we get hazy claims, "Praised by those within the industry." Yeah, uh-huh. Not.

I’m having a rollicking time listening to the grandiose claims of those supporting Save Angel, the departing strategists and Remember Angel. Surely all those involved deserve each other.

Think I’ll stroll on over and take a look at the real campaigns and the long term fan boards. SA, RA and attendents play amongst yourselves. Remember- don’t run with scissors.

Monday 5 July 2004, by ProphecyPotential :

The real question is, can we put all this behind and move forward? Or will the big picture be lost?

Both sides of the story are pretty apparent to all involved. Neither will budge on their stories, so, can’t we all agree to not agree and MOVE ON!

I forgive both sides, but will not forget what it has done to the campaign.

So, you need to ask yourself........are you ready to move on and fight the good fight?

Monday 5 July 2004, by HeKS :

Kenton, I have no wish to argue with a fellow strat (well, former fellow strat since I resigned), but I don’t see how you can say:

"I will state categorically that everything said against SaveAngel is bollocks of the sweatiest order."

and then say:

"I can not comment on the other side of the argument as I am not in full possession of the facts."

Doesn’t your lack of facts prevent you from being able to categorically deny anything? How can you be sure with less facts when we can’t even be sure with more facts.

None of the strats are disputing that has done a good deal in keeping up awareness of Angel. The issue as hand is that a number of us former strats have been told by a reputable source who has now posted on this board that there is evidence of misconduct in the top-level administration of the site. I have not seen this evidence which is why I am not personally making any accusations of misconduct in regard to money.

It is simply not wise for you to either categorically deny or support the accusations being made when you have hardly any information regarding them and haven’t been involved in many of the conversations surrounding them. I certainly hope you haven’t been buying the crap explanations as to why 6 strats have left the board in one week. The best stand to take at the moment is NO public stand I would guess . . . which is probably what I would have done had I not found out that I was bad-mouthed behind my back by someone apparently doing Simon’s bidding to the reputable source mentioned above and had my other fellow strats not been bad-mouthed here by Simon.

I hope you continue on to do good things as a strat at the site and hope things in your band go well . . . and I hope there’s no hard feelings for this.

Monday 5 July 2004, by Kenton Hall :

Heks, no offence taken. To make my position clear.. when I said I was not in full possession of the facts, re: the other side of the argument, I meant I had no wish to offer suggestions as to the reasons why all of this actually kicked off. I prefer to concentrate on the task at hand, which is really what we all should be doing.

I don’t represent SaveAngel, I merely like and respect those that do and have not only seen nothing to suggest impropriety but rather the opposite.

I have never been one not to take a public stand. Not in my nature. But this is getting out of all control and unless it is stopped in some humane way it will reflect badly on the nature of this entire endeavour, which is surely what we are all here for...

I just feel that people are looking for scandal in the midst of an unsettled time in the campaign(s). Something to blame for not having won a sixth season outright, perhaps? Everyone is angry, and that anger is being directed in, to me, inappropriate ways.

As for my statements regarding categorical denial... that is my belief through and through and as I have a polemical frame of mind, I have chosen to phrase this in a outright denial.

Faith is a wonderful thing. Pun intended.

Wednesday 7 July 2004, by Anonymous :

Go and read through the "Contest Committee" forum at Save Angel carefully. I think Simon made it public to vindicate himself, but there are comments in there which prove that Mary was speaking the truth with regards to Simon looking for ways to profit from the contest. There’s a discussion about using the winning entries in a book and selling it with the proceeds going to Save Angel. I read one post that alluded to a private discussion about other ways for Save Angel to get donations from fans to cover the costs of running the site. There’s mention of a cafe press store also designed to make money for the site.

Everyone, it doesn’t cost that much money to run a website. You don’t need elaborate fund-raising efforts to get the necessary money.

I don’t know of a single fan site out there that doesn’t absorb all those costs themselves. Now, I’m sure someone will point out that Save Angel isn’t a fan site, it’s a campaign site. Well, I guess I just don’t consider the operating costs of a website to constitute a campaign.

Don’t be afraid to ask questions of the various websites. If you don’t like the answers you get, then find another website where you are comfortable with how they conduct their business.

These comments are an anwser to this article : Troubles At - Money Used In An Unethical Way Or Malicious Attack ?

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