Angel vs Spike : Who deserves to Shanshu ? - Angel Magazine Good Quality Scan
Saturday 23 April 2005, by Webmaster
23 April 2005 21:40, by Anonymous
How lame could you be? There should be a little asterisk beside Angel’s since, you know, he was the one who caused them, albeit inadvertently. The Buffyverse would’ve been a much safer place if he’d have just kept it in his pants.
On a personal note, I don’t think either should become human, but if I were to choose, it’d probably be Spike. Simply because within the context of this article, *deserve* is the operative word. That, to me, goes along with *choice* and all of Spike’s deeds were done at his own will. He was never forced into anything and his soul is not an albatross to him. Angel on the otherhand can’t seem to do anything without a carrot on stick, whether it be a little blonde girl, Whistler, or a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. The only truly honorable thing he did was sign it away.
That doesn’t mean that Spike will, or Angel won’t, but deserve is a mighty powerful word.
24 April 2005 01:04, by Estelle
"The Los Angeles Hellmouth" (?!?...), it’s a huge mistake for the official Angel Magazine !
24 April 2005 13:45, by Anonymous
Of course spike had a choice! he is the one that chose to get a soul!, at least he didnt abandon Buffy even after what he did. Selfish stalker my arse! Angel Stalked buffy too! i guess hes a selfish stalker too! (hehe),Buffy is the one that went to him gave him money to help her! (yeh stalker) I think neither should deserve it, they killed thousands of people. nothing can make up for that
24 April 2005 15:58, by Anonymous
I have never posted before on this site but I had this idea on how they both can be human. Spike is Shanshu-ed because he went out and earn his soul. He did it for himself and buffy to be a better person. Angel was cursed. By default why should he be rewarded. It was a punishment, end of.
But here is where my idea comes into play. When Angel took that scroll he felt it had something do with him. But I feel this can be related to Spike because of their vampire bloodline. Spike sooner or later becomes human as he is shanshu’ed for his good deeds he out of his own free will. Not because he was cursed.
Angel’s cursed could be a bit deeper than we thought. Somehow the magic that keeps his soul within him changes or someone messes with it. Suddenly Angel and Angelus are split from each other...(not like that dream thing with faith) But in actual reality. They are still both vampires, but Angel learns that if he can somehow defeat Angelus, then when the vampire deamon dies within Angelus then the vampire in Angel dies also. Leaving him human. I think that would of been a good way to finish it. To defeat his own evil.
25 April 2005 01:01, by Denise
If you guys remember Angel signed away his shanshu there for it tells us it was suppose to be Angel not Spike! Spike got a soul so Buffy would love him like she did Angel! "so how did that work out for ya Spiky?"
25 April 2005 01:51, by Anonymous
Er, huh? Season 7 Spike stalked Buffy?? Utterly preposterous! The fact that he ended up in her midst only by getting chained in her basement and then wasn’t allowed by her to leave Sunnydale when he offered kinda runs counter to the "stalker" definition. It’s equally absurd when folks compare unsouled Spike with souled Angel and then claim some kind of weird triumph. Apples and oranges, anyone? Care to compare unsouled Angel with unsouled Spike? And more importantly souled Angel with souled Spike? Both vampires were inspired toward Good by loving Buffy. Only one of these vampires took 80+ years of bumbling around with a soul eating rats in alleys before deciding that, yes, stalking a fifteen year old girl could awaken his inner good. Only one of these vampires kept slipping from his purpose while having a soul, allowing human beings to be eaten by vampires, patronzingly zapping people’s memories (taking over free will) without their consent, deciding he might as well go evil again by sleeping with his evil Ex because the worldview was not going well for him. Starting over at rock bottom over and over. And... in unsouled state, only one of these vampires ever stalked Buffy with methods including killing her best friend’s goldfish and sending her victimized flame-o-grams. Angel has a LONG way to go before he remotely deserves Shanshu. He’s still got an evil "twin" living inside him who’s utterly uncontrolled by him. Spike on the other hand is a completely merged souled being. Does he deserve Shanshu? Heck, yes!! Not only is he the only vampire ever to choose to change his nature while not having a soul to help him make that choice, he also continued his progress steadily upward without all the downward spirals of Angel. And he’s always veered so close to humanity that even his detractors seem to get confused and talk as if he had his soul long before he actually did.
25 April 2005 03:31, by Anonymous
This question was answered in the damn series. Spike was brought in as a distraction so that Angel might lose his way. The higher powers where always going after Angel, not Spike. The PTB worked through Angel, he was there champion. Angel may have had his soul put in back by the gypsies, but Spike was also forced to be good when he had the chip put in his brain.
25 April 2005 04:52, by kile
Have y’all forgotten about the scene in the church in S7? Spike got his soul so that he would never be capable of the "almost" bathroom act again. I think that really something for a "soul-less" demon to CHOOSE. Give Spike some credit people.
25 April 2005 15:19, by Anonymous
The reasoning for Angel getting the shanshu (from this perspective) is rather lame. Doesn’t it seem that without any outside pep talks, no knowledge of rewards and nobody much liking you, it makes Spike even MORE heroic? (It does in my eyes)
25 April 2005 18:17, by Anonymous
No way Spike deserves it anyways, he’s a selfish bastard.
25 April 2005 21:52, by Anonymous
Spike deserves to shanshu more than Angel. He chose to win a soul. He killed the Annointed One in the beginning of season 2, helped Buffy against Angelus in Becoming 2 and closed the Hellmouth in Chosen. He’s the one.
25 April 2005 23:00, by Cat Vutt
Man, you guys missed the whole point of "Angel". There IS no Shanshu. It’s mumbo-jumbo. Angel signed it away because he realized just that: There is no redemption, there is no big reward. There’s just the fight, which never ends. Neither ’deserves’ to Shanshu, because the whole concept is contrary to the message of the series. They CAN NOT do enough to suddenly earn reward over their sins of the past. They just keep going, keep living, keep trying to be the best they can be NOW and hope for some moderate measure of redemption through the constant battle. Spike actually touched on this originally in his portion of the ending number in "Once More With Feeling". This ain’t a Christian philosophy, folks. Nobody’s sins are getting redeemed cuz they’re gettin all Shanshued.
26 April 2005 00:39, by Kat
I’m starting to think the person in question might be a troll as they always just repeat the same phrase and don’t have the guts to leave a name or it could be as Willow once said to Faith ’and there was me just thinking you didn’t have a comeback’. If you are not a troll - ’Spike was a stalker in season seven’ guy then prove me wrong and come up with a coherent arguement.
26 April 2005 01:08, by Mel
i really liked wat the person said before with all the facts. thats totally right! im an avid watcher and i agree that they are both good in some ways and bad in others. spike did not "stalk" buffy in season 7 at all. he was crazy. and angel truly does love buffy which is seen in season 1 angel. even though im leaning towards angel to have the shanshu because he is more selfless its a moot point because he signed it away for both of them. MOOT point.
26 April 2005 02:39, by Anonymous
All Spike getting a soul means is that the demon who posessed him sucks at being evil. How can you say Spike is better than Angel? unsouled Spike is better than Angelus not Angel. It’s unfair to compare them when one has a soul and one doesn’t.
Please Spike fans, realize that there are other characters in the verse and the shanshu has been Angel’s hope for years.
How many of you work for the fun of it? No. You work for money. Angel wanted to help people. He wanted to help because he cared about the shanshu and to be with Buffy. Spike helped people because he cared about Buffy. Neither of those are better reasons or make one better than the other.
They’re just things that people need to fight for to give their unlives meaning.
Also, let the "stalking a 15 year old" thing go, PLEASE. Hello? Angel was 250 years old. The age thing is a little irrelevant, all things considered.
26 April 2005 06:28, by Jena
Don’t you think it’s funny, that Spike fans can give intelligent counter points as to why Spike deserves the shanshu more than Angel... Where as Angel fans feel the need to destroy Spike’s character to prove that Angel deserves it?
28 April 2005 05:18, by MAIA
I DON’T KNOW WHY IS EVERYONE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHO DESERVED TO FULLFILL THE SHANSHU PROPHECY...I’M GLAD NEITHER OF THEM DID. IF ANY OF THEM HAD BECOME HUMANS IT WOULD’VE BEEN SO LAME!...THE SHOW WAS ABOUT VAMPIRES AND THAT’S WHY I WATCHED IT IN THE FIRST PLACE...THEY DIDN’T DESERVED TO BE HUMANS, THEY WERE MURDERERS!...AND THAT’S WHAT IT WAS ALL ABOUT.
10 June 2005 16:20, by Anonymous
Gee, all this talk on being human...if that was all there was to it, find another one of those demons like in angel’s first season and have both of them use it’s blood to change in to human. Personally I love both spike and angel and the person that said they watch the show because they are vampires is right on the mark!