Hotbuff Giles: "The world is going to end."
Buffy, Willow & Xander: "Again?"
Ok, so it doesn’t actually qualify as the apocalypse, but I checked out the please-please-let-it-be-true gossip on whether a Spike movie was actually in the offing, and highly placed sources in the TV industry say "Not even!" Just wanted to let all the chosen out there know, so none of us got our hopes up and our spirits all crushed or anything. Sigh.
I’ll post any new 411 on the Buffy musical here as soon as I hear it....But in the meanwhile, who can identify where that dialogue I quoted at the top of this blog comes from? Go ahead. Show off. You know you want to.
Who is that even from? Seems like a really foolish person decided to type that up. I really don’t think that Joss would tell all of his fans that there is a 99% chance of it happening and a 1% of it not, if he wasn’t even going to try to do it in the first place. All lies I tell you. I believe the Spike movie is coming! Spike Spike Spike!!
Just as I thought. I doubt it’ll ever happen. People will talk about it for years to come but I bet that’ll be as far as they’ll get with it. It’s all talk and no action.
Hmm, there’s an article on this site from the very same day that says this: "Finally, I’m hearing good,good,good, things on the “Spike” telemovie front. It’s coming together nicely. Should have more on that soon."
It’s from that Moviehole site. Funny how that statement seems to fit with everything else that’s been said about the movie so far, yet this article just has some "highly placed sources" in the TV industry saying it’s not happening. I don’t buy it. Either the person who wrote this article made it up for the attention, or the contacts this person spoke to are mistaken. According to everything else we’ve heard, there was a definate interest in this happening, it wasn’t just crap that was being spread around. So I don’t wouldn’t really take this article seriously at all.
I know Summers but I’ve been hearing that "Spike ruined Buffy" crap for years including from one of my own friends - tragically. Some people are just Luddites and some blame Spike for changes in the series that they didn’t like. I think he’s one of the most interesting people to ever grace our tv screens myself, aside from the fact he’s not bad to look either, but some folks just don’t share my opininion. I think they’re deluded but I guess they got a right to their opinion. At the end of the day if we do get a Spike film no one is forcing them to watch - something that some of them don’t seem to get.
I inclined to believe that this news is rubbish as it contradicts everything else that has been said recently including from Joss himself. I think that we’ll see the return of Captain Peroxide yet :-) even if we have to wait for a bit.
Ok well everyone already answered the q so anyway i dont think any of you should listen to this because both Joss there was gonna be a movie and there was an article where they interviewed Amy ACker and she confirmed that Joss contacted her about her in the role of Illyria again. Also this article is 79% while the Spike movie one was 99% so i wouldnt take this article too seriously either if it happens it will happens if it doesnt.... shit lol.
well I’d like to think this might actually happen for 2 reasons. Tim Minear said he’d been approached by Joss to write and direct the spike movie, so Joss’ other commitments won’t affect it that much. Second I believe that James himself said Joss had officially talked to him about it. I’m thinking when James has some time from Smallville it’ll get done . I don’t think Eliza or Amy or any other people they’d want to put in it would have a problem being free to film. Lastly with Serenity not doing gangbusters Joss may want to go back to the familiar terriotory of TV while he’s tackling WW. Just my 2 cents which may be all wrong :)
Yeah, decent people ran away from the show, and only kept the viewers of the most selfish character ever. Only because he has abs and cheekbones and whine about his girlish feelings.
"Yeah, decent people ran away from the show, and only kept the viewers of the most selfish character ever. Only because he has abs and cheekbones and whine about his girlish feelings."
You know this is the type of thing that really gets my goat about some sections of Buffy fandom. Aside from my own character preferences it’s just plain rude and childish to be insulting and presumptious about those who do not share your opinion. It is also fairly gutless not to put your money where you mouth is and put a name to your opinion - its pretty easy to hide behind being annoymous on the web and it makes you look even more like a troll then you already do.
I despise the assumption that the only reason that anyone could possibly like Spike as a character because of his physical attributes. My husband thinks Spike is a great character and shares my opinion that he is a more interesting person than Angel - and the abs and cheekbones hold no sway over his opinion - I’d be a bit worried if they did :-).
There’s probably no point arguing against your opinion as you are either a troublemaker or utterly convinced you are right but can I throw in a general plea for people not to slag off other characters or other aspects of the verse at will. It’s annoying and has done a lot of damage to Buffy/Angel fandom.
Spike is a 100% selfish character, who has used Buffy’s misery and pain to his own advantage. This got worse in S7 when he was the essential part of Buffy’s pain and misery as he made her feel guilty as hell and blamed her for everything that went wrong between them in S6. In essence he blamed the rape attempt entirely on her, which is discusting. Non-Spike fans hate it that Spike fans blame this on Buffy, instead of Spike. They bash every other character, the title character as the most important one, to make Spike look better. And oh, Spike has never showed any kind of interest in Buffy’s feelings, he can only whine about his own. Spike wanted to kill her then control her then own her. He was discusting. And oh, it is wrong that the scoobies messed with the natural order of things when they brought Buffy back. Magic has consequences afterall. But, that ripping a soul out of heaven and put it to a demon is also messing with the natural order of things which resulted in the death of many girls is suddenly not to blame on him but a heroic act?????? Oh, wait he did it for Buffy. Now it is Buffy who’s to blame for *his* mess. And she can clean it up.
Spike may appear to be the most important character but that is because the other characters were ignored, so that Spike’s arc could be forced into the show. If the true stars of the show had half the same respect Spike has had in S7, Spike would have been entirely useless - as he truely is. This was made painfully clear when the was shown as the ten year old who pisses on Angel’s chair at the expense of having had to kill off the true star of the show: Cordelia. And oh, Spike of course was used again to bash Buffy in The Girl in Question. Hence he destroyed the show as he destroyed the other characters. And only because AtS got axed, it was saved from the same fate.
Never mind the truth feel the spite. I know I’ll never change your mind here but I cannot allow such a bigoted load of tosh to stand unchallenged. If I’m wrong prove it and actually consider the opposite POV.
"Spike is a 100% selfish character"
So risking your life and going through great pain to acquire a soul is selfish. Letting yourself be burned from the inside when your beloved ex said it wasn’t necessary to close a hellmouth and save the world is selfish. Interesting definition you’ve got of selfish there mate.
"who has used Buffy’s misery and pain to his own advantage"
True, but it was the only way he knew to get close to her and she also took advantage of his feelings to vent the frustration and disperation she felt due to the situation she was in which he did not create. It wasn’t his fault she died, that her mother died, that she was ripped out of heaven by her friends or that she was clinically depressed as a result of this bad combination of factors but he ended up being used as a sex toy and a punchbag because of it. I also think that he took the brunt of an anger she felt on a subconcious level towards her friends but could not express. There are three sides to every story. Your version of abusive Spikey is one, this: http://www.btvs-tabularasa.net/essays/DomesticAbuse.html (which I hasten to add is not written by me) is another one. She admits herself in "Conversations with Dead People" she behaved like a monster and treated him like crap. The truth of course is that both contain an element of truth and you had two people who just didn’t understand the other ones feelings and couldn’t communicate with each other but were driven to each other by desperate needs. He didn’t understand how her conscience was tearing her apart but she didn’t understand that his feelings went beyond lust and masocism.
"In essence he blamed the rape attempt entirely on her, which is discusting" - You weren’t watching "Help" then literarily beating yourself up whilst muttering "I hurt the girl" looks like a fairly straight up admission of guilt to me, also in "Beneath You" he states that he wanted to be a kinder person who wouldn’t do nasty things like that. If he thought it was her fault why did he go to so much effort to change wouldn’t it have been easy just to set a trap and kill her.
"Non-Spike fans hate it that Spike fans blame this on Buffy, instead of Spike" - some do and they are wrong, although some of it is a backlash to attitudes such as yours that he’s a scumbag and that the abuse in s.6 Spuffy was solely from him to her. Don’t tar us all with the same brush - making this sort of assumption is preduice. No woman ever deserves to put through that and you can’t really blame a confused woman for acting in a confused manner but there were mixed signals being sent before. She kept saying "never, never" and then doing it again and in the scene in "Dead Things" she says "Stop" when it’s obvious a part of her doesn’t want that. The whole point is that Spike didn’t know any better. He’d never had a normal relationship and didn’t understand the boundaries of one, as soon as he realised he’d done some very wrong - he stopped and overtook steps to see he didn’t do it again. Unlike Warren the first words out of his mouth were "Why did I do it?"
"They bash every other character, the title character as the most important one, to make Spike look better"
Not guilty - the slander of any character annoys me and have posted to defend numerous other characters in the past on other message boards (including some unpopular ones such as Kennedy). I have said some things about Angel and Xander would could be regarded as derogatory but the former is motivated by the fact I think some people are under the delusion that Angel is a saint who never does any wrong and the later by his shoddy treatment of Angel even pre-Angelius.
"And oh, Spike has never showed any kind of interest in Buffy’s feelings" - so attempting to conform someone when they have been chucked out of their own house isn’t showing an interest in their feelings.
"he can only whine about his own" and no one else (for example Angel) ever does that do they?. I persume you "by whining" you mean the time when he thought he was losing his mind and was being tormented by the first and his own conscience. I think under some circumstances you are allowed to be "whiny".
"Spike wanted to kill her then control her then own her"
So that’s why he offered to leave in "First Date" then.
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"He was discusting" - now that’s an unbiased and rational opinion to have of someone isn’t it?.
"And oh, it is wrong that the scoobies messed with the natural order of things when they brought Buffy back. Magic has consequences afterall. But, that ripping a soul out of heaven and put it to a demon is also messing with the natural order of things which resulted in the death of many girls is suddenly not to blame on him but a heroic act?????? Oh, wait he did it for Buffy. Now it is Buffy who’s to blame for *his* mess. And she can clean it up"
What planet are you on mate?. It is my interpretation that like with Angel when Spike regained a soul it was "his" soul that it the one which he lost when was turned into a vampire - so it wasn’t some poor innocent’s soul being ripped out heaven here. There is no evidence that the unbalance of the natural order is anything to do with Spike’s ensoulement but it is entirely to do with Buffy living when she should be dead - i.e her resurrection and even if was then why does that make him a bad person because he couldn’t see all the consequences of his actions, if you condemn him on these grounds then you have to condemn Willow, Xander, Anya and Tara too. Technically Buffy is actually cleaning up Willow’s mess which both Spike and Willow play in a key role in helping with. Willow’s resurection of Buffy was arguably unwise, reckless and selfish but even Giles didn’t see that the weakening the Slayer line would be a result. No one can ever truly understand the full impact that their actions will have.
"Spike may appear to be the most important character but that is because the other characters were ignored, so that Spike’s arc could be forced into the show. If the true stars of the show had half the same respect Spike has had in S7, Spike would have been entirely useless - as he truely is. This was made painfully clear when the was shown as the ten year old who pisses on Angel’s chair at the expense of having had to kill off the true star of the show: Cordelia. And oh, Spike of course was used again to bash Buffy in The Girl in Question. Hence he destroyed the show as he destroyed the other characters. And only because AtS got axed, it was saved from the same fate".
Some people have said as much with more reasonableness about some characters being shoved into the background to make way for Spike’s story. However it wasn’t shoe-horned in, how he coped with gaining a soul was always going to be something that deserved screen time. Some people who complain about the side-lining of favourite characters would say it had more to do with potentials. One poster reviewing "the Killer in Me" said that although some people had complained it was Spike-centric anything that took air-time away from the potentials was fine by them. Shadow kat’s article on "The pitfalls of tv" although very critical of the attempted rape in "Seeing Red" stated that actually Spike didn’t get that much more screen time than anyone else in the final two seasons, it just seemed that way as he was involved with Buffy.
As for Cordelia being shelved to make room for Spike - that is riduculous - reading between the lines the reasons for that had far more to do with Chrisma Carpenter’s pregnancy which seemed to lead to a souring relationship between Mutant Enemy and CC since she didn’t warn them in advance causing them to have do radical re-writes for the latter half of Angel season four. It was stated since she had just become a mother then it was felt she might want more time at home with little un. Had Spike not come into Angel then Cordelia would not have come back full-time anyway. Also pay attention - it was actually Gunn who pissed in Angel’s chair under the influence of magic of course, unless you are taking metaphorically, and how did Spike "bash" Buffy in "The Girl in Question" when he didn’t even get to speak to her? I don’t like "The Girl in Question" as portrays a couple of heroes behaving like idiots.
As for Spike being useless - he was obviously a good enough fighter to have killed two slayers in the past and the re-gained of his soul took fighting ability and the ability to withstand torture.
I just hate the demonisation of chracters and I can’t stand the way you feel you have to villify a fasinating, and mult-facted character who did some pretty great things. However "selfish" Spike’s re-gain of a soul was, it was a incredible thing for a souless monster to do and it proved he was a lot more human than given credit for - Buffy herself saw that. I can understand the backlash against Spike - that some people feel that he’s over-rated, over-exposed and that his sins are over-looked. Even I get sick of some the drooling over him. Over-lionisation does not justify over-demonisation and I’d have lot more respect for some of his detractors even they admited that he has his moments. It does not mean that he’s the best character the verse, that no one else matters and or he is flawless. There are many good characters in the verse, they all matter and of course Spike has his faults - what makes the Buffy/Angel verse such an interesting to be as that it is full of these complex, flawed heroes who are not perfect - they ALL deserve our appreciation.
Spike is entirely selfish. He has a great emotional perception, and he entirely used it to get Buffy. And he went way too far in this. There is nothing holy about getting a soul when a dozen girls died because of it. Where was his magic has consequences speech then? He got his soul only because he wanted Buffy, hence selfish. He heroically risk his life for his *own* selfish and obsessive needs. There is nothing he did for Buffy, everything he did was for himself, regardless of the consequences. That he left to Buffy to clean up.
And oh, Spike used Buffy at least as much as Buffy has used him. He knew there was a remote chance that she had come wrong from the death. He did find it strange that she wanted to have sex with him. And he still accepted that. That is using, no matter how much you romanticize it and how much you bash Buffy. And Buffy admitted her part, Spike never did. He used it against her to make her feel guitly. He played games with her.
Angel has made his mistakes regarding Buffy. But he never blamed it on Buffy. He never blamed all the killings that Angelus did on Buffy even though she couldn’t kill him. And Angel wouldn’t have wanted to live knowing he would kill others as Angelus.
The same with Xander, Anya, Tara and Willow when they resurrected her. They knew they were wrong and took blame for it and they have paid the price for it. And if you watch very carefully, Spike told Xander that he only blamed them for it because he might have to kill her and he couldn’t. He doesn’t give a damn about Buffy, he’s only worried about how he feels.
Spike offered to leave in Get It Done, after he had seen in First Date how much control he had over Buffy as she only showed concern for his welfare while Xander could have been mortally wounded. He was messing with her head. He’s a manipulating.
Spike’s story was shoehorned in. For example in Empty Spaces both Xander and Willow get only one line to defend their opions, while we got entirely scenes of Spike and Andrew seeking information which never has been used again. EVER. The entire Spike/Andrew scenes was useless. Faith/Spike was useless. The entire Spike/Wood episodes had been going on for way too long. Why do we get another Spike background story while we never had one for either Xander, Willow and Giles? Wood’s character built up and got more arclines and background story then then the corescoobies together because he was needed for Spike’s arc. Only when you get the honor to be bashed for Spike’s arc you get an arcline. This was made extremely painfully clear by both Xander and Giles. Then there are the many boring episodes with Spike insane in the basement. And Buffy again forgot to take care of Dawn as she had promised. She couldn’t show Dawn the world because she was pulled down into Spike crap world. And then there is the amulet which was shoehorned in so that Spike can be the so-called hero. While the main stars of the show themselves can’t even do anything heroic at all in their final season. They couldn’t even bring the solution to their problems on their own, it needed to come from Lindsey and W&H of all people.
Buffy was dating an evil Immortal. How’s that not bashing? The entirely episode was not necessary. But only because Spike was in S5 they wanted some kind of Spike/buffy/Angel triangle. A triangle which messed up Chosen as well and was OOC for Angel -who suddenly forgot all about Cordelia. Only to make Spike jealous.
Spike is not a fascinating character. He is overused and everything about him is forced. He’s hypocritical, selfrightious, selfish, manipulating and arrogant.
to Kat: Hear ,hear!
Kat, you are so right and i read your whole (very long) post and couldnt agree more.
unbelievable that someone who claims to know and love the show says these ignorant things about the character of spike.
a bit silly really
And the bullshit continues - with the same old arguements. You’ve met your match here mate I’m just as bloody-minded as you are and I will not let you have the final word on this because I think you are so far into the wrong it’s untrue.
"Spike is entirely selfish."
This really illustrates how bigoted you are - doesn’t it especially the use of the words "entirely" and earlier "100%" - very few people in the Buffyverse are "entirely" or "100%" selfish to do that you have to no real feelings for anyone else in my book. So this excludes the Master who did things for Darla, Dru who did things for Spike, The Mayor who did things for Faith even Glory had in her own words "that pinch of humanity which made her go for the pain instead of the kill". The only beings I’ve seen qualify are Warren, Adam, Ethan Rayne and oh yes - Angelius (he never put himself out for anyone did he?). If Spike had no real empathy with Buffy he’d have carried on trying to kill or rape her.
"He has a great emotional perception, and he entirely used it to get Buffy"
Yes, but she made the first moves she kissed him first, she came on to him first. I never denied that he wasn’t guilty of taking advantage of the situation but only he wasn’t the only one and like Buffy he was doing it because of being screwed up rather than malicious.
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"And he went way too far in this"
Yes, but he had the guts and honesty to admit to that and more importantly do something positive about it. That deserves some respect which she realised and gave to him.
"There is nothing holy about getting a soul when a dozen girls died because of it. Where was his magic has consequences speech then?"
What???!!! - I think it’s really shows how deluded you are that you think Spike’s ensoulement had anything to do with the death of Potentials - besides even if it is true then you have in fairness you now have to have the same irrational hatred for Willow amongst the others involved in Buffy’s ressurection. It most cases I can see how you can believe what you do and it’s an exageration of what more reasonable people believe but this is so far removed from reality it’s a joke. Also because of Spike’s ensoulment a hellmouth is closed - the watchers, the kings of "the end justifies the means" mentality would say that’s worth the lives of a dozen girls.
"He got his soul only because he wanted Buffy, hence selfish. He heroically risk his life for his *own* selfish and obsessive needs. There is nothing he did for Buffy, everything he did was for himself, regardless of the consequences. That he left to Buffy to clean up"
Re-watch the end of "Beneath You" - yes he did want Buffy but he also wanted to be a better person so he wouldn’t hurt again. Also if that’s the case why die gaining her love isn’t much use to a selfish person if they ain’t around to enjoy it.
"And oh, Spike used Buffy at least as much as Buffy has used him. He knew there was a remote chance that she had come wrong from the death. He did find it strange that she wanted to have sex with him. And he still accepted that. That is using, no matter how much you romanticize it and how much you bash Buffy. And Buffy admitted her part, Spike never did. He used it against her to make her feel guitly. He played games with her"
Yes and no - yes he did manipulate the situation and play her and use her but the point is it wasn’t malicious it’s the only way he knew to get close. Also my point about it going both ways still stands. I can point as well it wasn’t Spike who beat someone up so badly that they fell to the ground and had bruises for a week. Again - you weren’t listening during "Help" - "I hurt the girl" is a fairly clear admission of guilt there. Earlier in "Beneath You" he apologies - she says something like sorry doesn’t cut it and he admits she’s right.
"Angel has made his mistakes regarding Buffy. But he never blamed it on Buffy. He never blamed all the killings that Angelus did on Buffy even though she couldn’t kill him. And Angel wouldn’t have wanted to live knowing he would kill others as Angelus"
Nor did Spike - he never said you lead me on or it’s your fault I tried to rape you. He simply said "you used me" which is actually true. You also have to understand the spirit in which he said "you used me" was to state that he now understand that some of her rage against him came from the guilt and self-hatred she felt which he understood as he knew what it was like to feel that, unlike before. As for the shot about killing people - cheap. Spike didn’t know he was killing people and he actually asks Buffy to kill him and tries to provoke her into doing it at the end of "Never Leave Me" by telling her about the horrible things he’s done. It pisses me off that Spike’s critics play the "Angel’s so much better line" when it’s bullshit.
"The same with Xander, Anya, Tara and Willow when they resurrected her. They knew they were wrong and took blame for it and they have paid the price for it. And if you watch very carefully, Spike told Xander that he only blamed them for it because he might have to kill her and he couldn’t. He doesn’t give a damn about Buffy, he’s only worried about how he feels"
No - listen carefully what he actually says something like - if she came back wrong you’d have to kill her and I wouldn’t let you. He’s saying he couldn’t bear to see a Buffy die even if it’s a wrong Buffy - it is a bit selfish and it’s amoral but it does show his feelings. The arguement that he only cares about his feelings is circular - his feelings are about how he feels about her and we see in "Intervention" and "Forever" that he doesn’t like seeing her suffer and will try not do things that will cause that.
"Spike offered to leave in Get It Done, after he had seen in First Date how much control he had over Buffy as she only showed concern for his welfare while Xander could have been mortally wounded. He was messing with her head. He’s a manipulating"
For starts he offers to leave at the end of "First Date" - get your facts right. As for the second part - Wood had already rescued Xander, Xander was going to be ok, for all we know Buffy then looked over Xander. How was that manupulation on Spike’s part if she choose to see that he was ok - we don’t see him moan or do anything that draws attention to himself.
"Spike’s story was shoehorned in. For example in Empty Spaces both Xander and Willow get only one line to defend their opions, while we got entirely scenes of Spike and Andrew seeking information which never has been used again. EVER"
Nope, the "it’s the only for her to wield" message on the mission’s walls turned out to be pretty key actually.
"The entire Spike/Andrew scenes was useless"
Nope, it showed how worried he was about her and also we needed a little comic relief.
"Faith/Spike was useless"
Not vitual to the plot but an enjoyable scene that said things about both characters. Also this was a stage when they thought they might to doing a Faith spin-off with Spike in it and wanted to see if the two characters worked together.
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"The entire Spike/Wood episodes had been going on for way too long. Why do we get another Spike background story while we never had one for either Xander, Willow and Giles? Wood’s character built up and got more arclines and background story then then the corescoobies together because he was needed for Spike’s arc"
Wood was an interesting character in his own right who was given a plotline with Faith which existed independently of Spike. You opinion on the Spike/Wood plotline is just that. I disagree with you but there is no right or wrong on that one.
"Only when you get the honor to be bashed for Spike’s arc you get an arcline"
So the inclusion of a backstory for Anya for the first time, Willow’s tormented conscience as evidenced in "Same Time, Same Place" "Conservations with Dead People" and "Killer in Me", Dawn’s discovery she wasn’t a potential, Xander and Anya making love twice, Andrew and Anya’s talk in the hospital all included Spike bashing someone’s head in - must have been asleep when that one came in.
"This was made extremely painfully clear by both Xander and Giles"
How? no don’t bother.
"And Buffy again forgot to take care of Dawn as she had promised. She couldn’t show Dawn the world because she was pulled down into Spike crap world"
No, it’s because she had to train potentials.
"And then there is the amulet which was shoehorned in so that Spike can be the so-called hero. While the main stars of the show themselves can’t even do anything heroic at all in their final season. They couldn’t even bring the solution to their problems on their own, it needed to come from Lindsey and W&H of all people"
Yes, but that can also be seen as an excuse to get Angel into the show briefly too. Also what you raise there is a failing of the plot if there was one. It isn’t an issue as to why Spike is a crap character. He did still give up his life to close a hellmouth - there is no "so called" about the heroic there.
"Buffy was dating an evil Immortal. How’s that not bashing?"
Again that’s a beef with the writers and had Spike not been there it would have just been Angel chasing around trying to speak to her, she still would have been dating The Immortal. Beside Darla says quite clearly in the flashback bit "the immortal is not good or evil. He purses his own path". He seems to be bit of Cassanova character to me who does things because they are interesting and enjoyable without reference to their morality - that’s neutral rather than evil. The perspection of him as evil is Spike’s and Angel’s and they are both jealous of him twice over.
"The entirely episode was not necessary. But only because Spike was in S5 they wanted some kind of Spike/buffy/Angel triangle"
Agree with the first statment but the second bit is more that the triangle already existed and it was an unsuccessful attempt to resolve it.
"A triangle which messed up Chosen as well"
It only features in the first part of "chosen" then focuses moves pretty quickly to the final battle.
"and was OOC for Angel -who suddenly forgot all about Cordelia. Only to make Spike jealous"
There is no evidence Angel ever forgot about Cordelia. He’s got a big heart - you can love more than one person at once. Also it’s not about making Spike jealous it’s about his own feelings for Buffy.
I agree but that .
Spike is not a fascinating character. He is overused and everything about him is forced. He’s hypocritical, selfrightious, selfish, manipulating and arrogant.
I knew there was just one little bit about the last rant from the person too gutless to give their name, that I hadn’t replied to
"Spike is not a fascinating character. He is overused and everything about him is forced. He’s hypocritical, selfrightious, selfish, manipulating and arrogant."
No actually his emotional journey makes sense if he looked at logically. He’s a emotional person and follows his instincts and feelings, rightly or wrongly. He’s a person, always was really, just sometimes a very bad one. I disagree completely with him being hypocrital or self-righteous - both of those adjectives actually describe Angel a lot better in my opinion. Spike doesn’t tend to tell people how to behave which a hypocritical and self-righteous person does. He can be arrogant, selfish and manipulative but then so can a lot of other characters, both good and evil. Strangely enough you miss his real faults out which are being implusive, short tempered and over-influenced by the libido. However, he is also brave, tenacious and sometimes emphatic and sometimes very perceptive. The thing that you are not getting is part of the reasons why I love a lot of the people in the Buffyverse is that they have very human faults riding alongside their greatness, it means you can indentify with them much more than paragons of virtue who never err. A lot of characters I like which also include Faith and Willow have problems controlling their tempers which is something I can personally relate to. I didn’t like Riley much because he was too goody two shoes and therefore dull.
No - listen carefully what he actually says something like - if she came back wrong you’d have to kill her and I wouldn’t let you. He’s saying he couldn’t bear to see a Buffy die even if it’s a wrong Buffy - it is a bit selfish and it’s amoral but it does show his feelings.
At that is the essence of my what bothers me the most about Spuffy. It’s is ALWAYS about HIS feelings. His whole relationship is about him and not about Buffy. It’s like a monologue. Even in Touched where it really should be about Buffy and he should show concern for Buffy, it is still about him. When he talks about his past crimes it is about him, not about the victims. This was shown twice in S7 with Buffy and with Nikki. This becomes boring quick and then annoying. Anya is exactly the same, but Anya just can’t do better. Spike can. He, unlike Anya, has emotional perception. But he only uses it for himself.
Giles was turned into a backstabber and Xander who they have decided he doesn’t have to be Spike’s antagonist anymore is therefore shoved into the background, after having been Spuffy’s buttmonkey for an entire year. Blech. Willow was shoved into a buttrelationship with a bitch. So that Buffy can be all over her stalker. Xander couldn’t even have a final scene with Willow showing his emotions about Anya’s death for ten seconds because that would take time away from Spike’s endless arclines.
No, Spike compared Buffy’s using him to his own evilness, it was that wrong in his opinion. But he forgot to mention that he has used her as well. Buffy did have sex with him because she loved him, she had sex with him to feel. And Spike damn well knew that. He took advantage of her pain and misery. He is a vampire, they can sense guilt, pain a misery as a sixth sense. What Spike did was pulling out the Anne Rice trick and talk about how hurt he was, etc, and mosly because of her. And everything we saw in the rest of the season was Buffy suffering from a massive dose of unjusitified remorse.
He asked Buffy to kill him for the girls he tried to kill? Wow. I saw him trying to risk the lives of those girls to proof that they were wrong instead of make sure he will never hurt anyone. Point with killings is that he was a consequence of him meddling with souls, and that is serious business as we saw with Buffy.
Xander was almost unconscious of the bleeding, and not once has Buffy checked him out. How can she know he’s okay. Spike can smell the amount of blood, he knows it what kind of condition Xander was in. He didn’t give a damn, all he cared was that Buffy had his attention on him, which was the goal he tried to reach (Xander was nothing but a lame excuse). So, Spike said he would leave at the end of the episode, not the at beginning of the next one. He said it as a next move on his chess-play to get Buffy.
Did Spike tell anything of the message he found in Empty Spaces? Did Buffy wait for Spike to return for info before she made up her plan? Both no. Hence useless. Nothing but a cheap plotdevice to get him away. And it wasn’t it very strange that he knew why they had kicked Buffy out, in detail? No-one has told him.
Willow, Anya and Dawn got something in first half, a little plot and in the second half they got nothing. Strange considering this was the final season of the show and they still had a major evil to stop. They had no part in it at all.
The Spike/Buffy/Angel triangle did not excist, it was shoehorned in. Angel had his own show and his own girl: cordelia. Someone he conviently forgot when he had to kiss Buffy to make Spike jealous. If he had one shred of heart for Cordelia he would have told Buffy about her condition. The Scoobies had the right to know.
Spike is hypocritical and self-rightious. See his rant to the Scoobies as an example. Spike doesn’t follow his instincts and emotions, he follows that what he wants. And he’s very calculated, manipulative. He makes sure that he gets it no matter how, no matter the cost. If Buffy must suffer because of it, who cares? Because than she is better for him to conquer. He can’t put his own feelings above hers. He never did.
I don’t care about his short temperness, his obnoxiousness, etc. It is not in his personality that lies my problem. He was horrible for Buffy and he was horrible for the show. He turned Buffy into a complete utter bitch and he made sure the other characters got nothing but crap. Hence he destroyed the show. It should have been him who should have been killed out of the show in Seeing Red, not Tara. S7 would have been much much better.
"Living is easy with eyes closed mis-understand all you see"
I knew I was never going to open your eyes here but you may actually have defeated me because there isn’t much rational there I can dispute. This is just a rant with very little logic and a whole lot of assumption behind it. It also contradicts a lot of things said by Joss and by other writers - but hey knock yourself out.
There nothing he could have done that would convince you that his feelings were geunine - gaining a soul, offering to to leave, asking to be killed, being in so much pain and misery that he just wanted to hide away from people, the masocism, the speech about how much cared for her not because of what he wanted but because of who she was, the sacrifice of live in a painful manner - it’s all just mind games to you ain’t it? Tell me if he’s such a selfish git - what would have done if he wasn’t apart from stake himself - cos that would have helped so much.
I suppose it cuts no ice with you that a lot of Spike’s bad actions were pre-soul, he may have emotional awareness but he didn’t have a soul and ergo conscience but still managed to do good things without one. In a sense the bad things were to be expected - he had to learn the hard way that you hurt what you love if you don’t have a moral compass - what made him extraordinary is he changed that. Care to compare his actions with those of Angelius which is a much fairer comparison. Anya may not have emotional perception but she always had a soul and what’s more she had people around her who accepted her, Xander loved her, he told her he loved her. When she seduced Xander, she wasn’t told afterwards that he was disgusted with himself and if he told anyone about them he would kill her, instead Xander gave her a chance. Yes, she did have a soul which gave her a moral compass but Spike was never given any encouragement and he still managed to become a better person against the odds - yeah him I say.
Every character was demonised or sidelined and your god Angel’s life was destroyed - blah, blah, blah. Buffy wasn’t turned into a bitch by Spike but by the fact her life had become hard in the later seasons - she was depressed in season six and under a staggering amount of pressure in season seven - entrusted with the lives of an entire generation of slayers who mostly just whined and critised her despite the fact she worked her arse off for them - at least Spike was grateful she saved his. A lot of people found the potentials bloody annoying and could probably understand how spending all your time with them would make you a little cranky.
Giles’s wasn’t turned into a betrayer - he did what he thought was the right thing - some agreed, some disagreed. Your dislike of Kennedy is nothing to do with Spike. Your bitterness Tara was killed nothing to do with Spike. The disruption of Cangel (which at least your commitment to shows that we have something in common - strange but true) was nothing to do with Spike.
As for Xander - you know so much more about what goes on Spike’s head then we are shown on the screen (cos I gotta say I saw nothing that showed me that Spike was looking for an excuse to break up Buffy’s date or that he didn’t give a shit about Xander’s imperilment - he seemed just to want to be useful to me, it was an offer to help to find Buffy and logical since if Xander was in trouble, he was going to be the useful person to have around in a fight against something nasty), of course he’s going to smell blood, Xander’s been knifed but he’s been cut down and Wood is seeing to him. Spike and Buffy look at each other briefly to check they are both ok - he almost died the day before (now you don’t give a shit about him but she does) and then Wood sees the look and we cut to Xander returning home. How you know what happens next that Buffy doesn’t turn to Xander to see he’s ok. Iit’s cut cos it’s not relevant to the plot while the look between Buffy and Spike is important in terms of how Wood reads the relationship and the resentment it breeds in him.
Your arguement about girls being killed because of Spike’s ensoulement is rubbish. He killed under the influence of the trigger because of the first’s manipulation and the potentials were killed because of Willow’s resurection spell. Angel took a century to much use in the Good Fight due to the trauma of being ensouled, it wasn’t suprising that Spike was mentally fragile enough to be manupulated.
You have said nothing to disprove my earlier point - that people who rant about Spike doing so because they don’t like plot developments in the later seasons and because in their view Angel is the only ensouled vampire who matters.
Anya may not have emotional perception but she always had a soul and what’s more she had people around her who accepted her, Xander loved her, he told her he loved her. When she seduced Xander, she wasn’t told afterwards that he was disgusted with himself and if he told anyone about them he would kill her, instead Xander gave her a chance. Yes, she did have a soul which gave her a moral compass but Spike was never given any encouragement and he still managed to become a better person against the odds - yeah him I say
I know the Spike the Martyr argument very well. But I entirely disagree. Spike had support from Willow, Giles and even Xander throughout S4. They believed he could do better. They have risked their lives for him. Saved him. Protected him from the initiative. And the only thing that Willow, Giles and Xander got in return was mocking and betrayel. He even mocked them time and time again that they were stupid to believe he could do good.
He didn’t try to be morally good for Buffy. He tried to conquer her. The lack of soul argument is not an argument. Buffy was his soul and second it’s positive discrimination. Anya was dealing with an overwhelming amount of new emotions and could barely deal with life as a human. She is, most importantly, not capable of seeing the feelings and emotions of others. Spike very much is.
Spike did not become a better person. It took him to go against his own soul, his love for Buffy, to get a real soul. He stalked her, messed with her head, talked shit behind her back, told her she was dead or like him a demon, tried to make her jealous and finally almost tried to rape her. There is not way that at the end of S6 he was a better person than he was in S4. None. As long as he thought that there was hope for him that he could get Buffy and believed that she want him to be a better man he could bring himself to do so. And only under these strict conditions with the aid of a chip.
And arguments that Buffy got first on to him, doesn’t count. When Buffy was under the influence of the love spell and tried to have sex with Xander, he denied it as any decent guy would do. And his love was at least as strong as Spike’s. Xander has respect for Buffy, Spike doesn’t. Spike damn well knew she wasn’t in love with him. If she tells him that she is sick of herself for having had sex with him, and the next time she comes back for more - you have to know that something is wrong with her. And if you then have sex with her you are USING her. And for that alone he’s using her more than she EVER will. You are romanticizing that. I say it is sick. I puke on it. I puke on scenes that he has sex with her when she is in complete misery after her work in the foodindustry. He is completely and totally using her. And there is no Martyr in that at all. If there’s a martyr than it’s Xander, who has had to face a lot more shit coming from Buffy than Spike EVER has had.
Twice he sought for a reason in First Date to interrupt Buffy’s date. And Buffy’s first reaction should have been to check out Xander. Not only as his friend but also as the leader. Spike is a vampire he can’t be mortally wounded. As a leader you check out the possible mortally wounded warriors first. But she was worried that Spike would leave now she had a date. Spike convientely used this to his advantage.
Second moment became painfully clear when she said to Giles that Spike was the only one she could trust her back with. While at the same Xander laid in the hospital bed have lost his eye because of his trust in her. An oh, has Spike in the week between Dirty Girls and Empty Spaces ever given Buffy any moral support? No, he left her at the moment she needed him the most, when she was about to tell her plan - which he already knew. Spike never tried to suppoor rt Buffy then. Never tried to make amends with her friends and tell them that Buffy needs their trust now more than ever. Or anything remotely like that. Faith showed more care for Buffy’s situation than Spike did. Spike knew she would be kicked out, because he had planned it that way and made sure the moment was the best to give him his best shot to conquer her. Which he did in Touched.
I didn’t say that Giles betrayed Buffy. He tried to backstab Spike. There’s a difference between the two.
Buffy became a bitch thanks to Spike.
I don’t hate Kennedy at all. She was barely developed thanks to Spike, but at least she was able to stand up against Buffy and Spike. She had guts and she actually cared for Willow. She stood up for her, immediately. Not waiting until it’s way too late.
Spike wanting to be helpfull. Since when is Spike wanting to be helpfull?
Spike should have died in Seeing Red, because that was what he deserved. To remove the most discusting element of the show and going back to what made the show great. Complex arclines of everyone intertwined with each other. Not the obsessive conquest of a stalker.
"Spike did not become a better person. It took him to go against his own soul, his love for Buffy, to get a real soul. He stalked her, messed with her head, talked shit behind her back, told her she was dead or like him a demon, tried to make her jealous and finally almost tried to rape her"
Yes but he realised that his lack of soul had cause it and then tried to recity the situation, that it was repentance is. It the effort but just to apologise for sins but to actively seek not to commit them again. As Buffy "you may not see it but I do".
"Spike damn well knew she wasn’t in love with him. If she tells him that she is sick of herself for having had sex with him, and the next time she comes back for more - you have to know that something is wrong with her. And if you then have sex with her you are USING her. And for that alone he’s using her more than she EVER will. You are romanticizing that. I say it is sick. I puke on it. I puke on scenes that he has sex with her when she is in complete misery after her work in the foodindustry. He is completely and totally using her. And there is no Martyr in that at all"
Yes, never denied that but if you come onto someone, use them for sex to feel something, tell them they are disgusted with them and beat them up when it suits you then you are are also using them - Buffy herself had the guts to admit that. I puke on that that you can see that she treated him as badly as he did her. She was confused and mixed up, yes he should have been a gentleman like Xander but unlike with Xander she had free will, she may have been confused but she did not act under the influence of a spell. Spike didn’t have a soul - he didn’t know the boundaries and whatever you say I don’t think he did understand the full extent of her confusion. Xander all demoned up on the hyena juice also tried to molest Buffy. Also I think he held out the hope that he could convince her into caring about him in time "we more you suffer the more it shows you really care" as Offspring once sang - it’s the delusion of why a lot of people stay in bad relationships in the hope they’ll get better.
"If there’s a martyr than it’s Xander, who has had to face a lot more shit coming from Buffy than Spike EVER has had"
Jog my memory here if I’m missing something but Buffy has NEVER described Xander as disgusting or as convenient. Even if she never recognised him as a boyfriend she always did as a man and someone who’s feelings mattered. There is no comparison.
"Twice he sought for a reason in First Date to interrupt Buffy’s date. And Buffy’s first reaction should have been to check out Xander. Not only as his friend but also as the leader. Spike is a vampire he can’t be mortally wounded. As a leader you check out the possible mortally wounded warriors first. But she was worried that Spike would leave now she had a date. Spike convientely used this to his advantage"
Wood was dealing with it, she looked at Spike for a second, we didn’t see what she did next, there is no evidence that Spike was looking for a reason to break up the date - he offered to fetch her twice when Xander was in trouble, a sensible reaction as she was the best person to kick whatever was eating Xander’s head. As for the second bit, we see no evidence he threatens to manipulate here - he tells he’s ok with her date hardly the behaviour of someone looking to evoke jealously. He can’t win - he offers to leave he’s manipulating if he didn’t offer to leave he’d be hanging around trying to rain on her relationship with Wood, if he did leave against Buffy’s wishes he’d be deserting her in her hour of need.
"Second moment became painfully clear when she said to Giles that Spike was the only one she could trust her back with"
Because Giles however good his intentions where had gone behind her back, a violation of trust
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"While at the same Xander laid in the hospital bed have lost his eye because of his trust in her"
the comment was directed at Giles, angry people are not always wise nor thinking of everything. Anyway how is Buffy’s failure of understanding Spike’s fault
"An oh, has Spike in the week between Dirty Girls and Empty Spaces ever given Buffy any moral support? No, he left her at the moment she needed him the most, when she was about to tell her plan - which he already knew. Spike never tried to suppoor rt Buffy then. Never tried to make amends with her friends and tell them that Buffy needs their trust now more than ever. Or anything remotely like that. Faith showed more care for Buffy’s situation than Spike did. Spike knew she would be kicked out, because he had planned it that way and made sure the moment was the best to give him his best shot to conquer her. Which he did in Touched"
You attribute amazing powers of telepathy and prophersy to Spike here (on top of the power to sense human misery which we have seen no evidence that he or any other vampire possesses). She hadn’t told him the plan and NO ONE knew that a discussion about what to do next would lead to a mutiny. Also it was GILES’S idea to send Spike to the mission on the grounds if Caleb had left something unpleasant there then Spike was the best person apart from the two slayers to kick its head in. He wasn’t happy about going, it is clear that he was worried sick about what maybe happening to Buffy in his absense and it Giles’s decision again made in Buffy’s absense which causes Buffy’s comments to Giles. She’s worried he’s sent Spike on a suicide mission.
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"I didn’t say that Giles betrayed Buffy. He tried to backstab Spike. There’s a difference between the two.
Buffy became a bitch thanks to Spike"
No, she got annoyed because someone who was waited to stay a year ago abandoned her saying she had to learn to stand on her own two feet and then a year later so little trusts her own judgement when she doesn’t stand on her own that he acts behind her back in a conspiracy to kill someone who is the very least a friend of hers. Most people would be more than a little peeved in that situation, however noble the motives behind the actions were.
"I don’t hate Kennedy at all"
Why call her a bitch then, that seems like a far statement of hate to me. You slag her off when it suits her saying Willow’s character was sadly served by dumping her in a relationship with her and then you defend her if it means you have another stick to beat Spike with - that’s consistant.
"She was barely developed thanks to Spike"
What you say later about her character contradicts this, she was given lots of screen time
"but at least she was able to stand up against Buffy and Spike"
No, she stood up against Buffy, she never mentioned Spike
"She had guts and she actually cared for Willow. She stood up for her, immediately. Not waiting until it’s way too late"
Yes, totally agree with her. Now in view of earlier statements - Why was Willow badly served as a character by being a relationship with someone like that.
"Spike wanting to be helpfull. Since when is Spike wanting to be helpfull?"
Offering to help sniff out demon in "Same Time, Same Place", charging into to fight demon in "Help", sacrificing own life to save hellmouth - just a few things you understand.
"Spike should have died in Seeing Red, because that was what he deserved"
Aside from the issue of killing someone who was already seeking to put things right, in "Lord of the Rings" Gandalf the grey said "many live who deserve death, many die who deserve life" and then goes onto to elaborate that if you kill someone you have no idea what effect removing them will have that "even the wisest cannot tell". Gollum who he was refering to turned out to be a lot more unreademable than Spike but it was due to Gollum that the one ring was destroyed. Without Spike, Buffy wouldn’t have gone back to get the scythe, it would have been Angel who died closing the hellmouth and it would have taken longer to discover the First’s plans - as Gandalf said don’t be so quick to condemn one person to death.
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"To remove the most discusting element of the show and going back to what made the show great. Complex arclines of everyone intertwined with each other. Not the obsessive conquest of a stalker"
A stalker who only ever sought out his "prey" once in season seven and then let her come to him. In a great season where a man who loved someone so much they were prepared to die to protect their little sister from someone who meant her harm was killed because he got confused - that’s great, that’s a really uplifting message to send as opposed to the one that you can redeam yourself if you want it enough and try hard enough. Season seven did have complex plot lines, it had two great episodes centred on Anya and Andrew, it had a message of hope, of redemption.
Can you honestly say that season seven would have been wonderful if Spike had been removed from it. I don’t like Riley but the flaws in season four were not limited to him - and it would probably still have been my least favourite season without him in it. Stop scapegoating one character for what you didn’t like about the last two seasons. It’s as tedious, replusive and bloody annoying as you think Spike is.
You attribute amazing powers of telepathy and prophersy to Spike here (on top of the power to sense human misery which we have seen no evidence that he or any other vampire possesses). She hadn’t told him the plan and NO ONE knew that a discussion about what to do next would lead to a mutiny.
I don’t make this up myself. It’s canon. He knew exactly what had happened between the Scoobies and Buffy. He told this to Buffy. But no one has ever told him. He knew it because he knew the Scoobies and he knew Buffy. Just like he knew everything about them in Yoko Factor. I am willing to see this as a mistake just as that scene in First Date was a mistake. But he still had an amazingly lack of concern for Buffy’s situation for months. He stands by and let the drama evolve itself, just like he stood by in S6 and let himself become her attempted rapist.
Kennedy is a bitch because she was portrayed that way. She doesn’t get fleshed out, she doesn’t remains a character who’s obnoxious and without personality. But she was good for Willow regardless of that. Being a bitch or an asshole doesn’t equal dislike. There is lot more necessary for that. Kennedy was forced on Willow, badly worked out, and basically used to remove her from Buffy so that Spike can have solo screentime with her.
Buffy had free will? No, she did not. She was suffering a huge depression. She couldn’t deal with it. Spike doesn’t have a soul but that says nothing about free will. He has all the free will in the world. And he choose to use her. This whole lack of a soul argument is nothing but positive discrimination. If you want that Spike should have been treated equally, you should look to his actions and not to what or who he is.
Buffy never called Xander discusting. She went way further. She said nothing to Xander. She always swallowed her rather angry feelings for him and did as if she was his friend, his sister. This became more than apparent in S6 where she doesn’t come to him as friend for her problems, for comfort, but to the man she hates, the man he hates. She asked for his friendship, for his support and denying this from him is much more hurtfull. Xander had to fight to be supportive for her, Spike got it for free, he got because she hated him. Xander had to fight to be respected as a fellow warrior, something it is doubtful he ever really got. Xander simply had to fight to even be seen by her. And this was made very painfully clear in First Date and in Empty Spaces where when she in anger tells Giles that the only person she can trust her back with is Spike.
Spike simply has ruined by favorite characters and my favorite show in two years time. From the fact that Buffy had to come out of heaven into hell to safisfy Spike’s obsessive needs to the ridiculing, bashing trashing and extremely ignoring of them all to make him look better. And if you claim that Buffy was horrible to Spike I have proved more than enough my point. But Buffy was ten times more horrible to her friends because of Spike. S7 entirely sucked because of the neverending boringness of Spike with Buffy and taking all the screentime away from her with her friends. Take away the depth and complexity all the characters arclines used to have.
And now this piece of shit gets his movie???? It ’s nothing more than betrayel.
Can you honestly say that season seven would have been wonderful if Spike had been removed from it.
Yes! Far better!
S4 was not very good either, but at least the characters were treated with respect. They were turned into shit into the background and portrayed as 2D character to glorify Riley. And Spike was fun too in S4. Far better than in S7.
but unlike with Xander she had free will, she may have been confused but she did not act under the influence of a spell.
I want to make my point with this very clear. Even if Buffy had free will, Spike was still completely wrong. Spike did not know if she was okay. He did not know if she had come right or wrong. He was even suprised that she wanted to have sex with him. But Spike didn’t care if she okay or wrong, because she gave him what he wanted and he took in the hope to get one step closer.
If Xander had done the same in S2, we would have seen the same crap, Buffy would have treated Xander also as crap, and you would romanticized as much you do with Spike. On the argument that he loved her. But you can’t romanticize that what is fundamentally wrong. Spike doesn’t need to be a gentlemen, but this was wrong.
Where exactly?? Make with the quotey here because it’s in no cannon I’ve ever seen.
"He knew exactly what had happened between the Scoobies and Buffy. He told this to Buffy"
No, he really didn’t. For starters he blames Faith, probably because she was the one who waded in and told him to shut up. Buffy had tell him it was all of them. He didn’t know he guessed - it wasn’t exactly hard to read between the lines that they’d been a major disagreement that had probably involved most people. I don’t blame Faith for the record, I don’t blame anyone. I think like many things it was down to differences of opinion. I’m angry at both Anya and Rona the moaner who behaved like bitches but beyond that just one of those things. Just thought I’d point that out before you accuse me who push the blame away from Spike onto other people.
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"But no one has ever told him. He knew it because he knew the Scoobies and he knew Buffy. Just like he knew everything about them in Yoko Factor"
No, he guessed a few things in the "Yoko Factor" too - you say him see Willow touch Tara on the neck and then make the comment about them saying Willow and magic as a veiled reference to Tara. Beside no one is the same as they were in the "Yoko Factor" they’ve all changed. Unlike the "Yoko Factor" no one is shit stiring here - it’s just a situation with a lot of folks dealing with a lot of pressure badly.
"But he still had an amazingly lack of concern for Buffy’s situation for months"
No one apart from Buffy respects Spike. Giles says "I’ll never want your opinion" in "Once More with Feeling" and although a throw away line he means it. If he’d said something no one would have listened. The real problem of Buffy’s situation in s.7 is she’s carrrying too much responsibility and sadly no one can really help her with that.
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"He stands by and let the drama evolve itself, just like he stood by in S6 and let himself become her attempted rapist"
He didn’t set out to do that, he actually was trying to apologise at the time but just didn’t understand why she wasn’t coming back, it was the "Gone with the Wind" delusion and a whole ton of desperation. Like the guy who shot his recent ex in "I Only Have Eyes for You" it was something "stupid done in a moment of blind passion". How can you understand someone leaving for moral reasons if you don’t see it?
"Kennedy is a bitch because she was portrayed that way"
Yet you say she’s protective of Willow and fights for her - not the quality of a bitch in my opinion. A bitch to me is someone who doesn’t give a toss about anyone but themselves. Maybe we’ve got different definations here. Kennedy can be over-assertive and bolshy but wouldn’t say bitchy.
"She doesn’t get fleshed out, she doesn’t remains a character who’s obnoxious and without personality"
Again, opinion which I don’t agree with, her care for Willow, her assertiveness and the fact she speaks against Buffy are character traits. She is sometimes obnoxious but that’s a lot of people and it’s the flip side of being assertive.
"But she was good for Willow regardless of that"
At least we agree on something but then why say that Willow’s character was poorly served by being in relationship with someone who was like that.
"Being a bitch or an asshole doesn’t equal dislike"
They’re not exactly complimentary terms, again maybe your definations are different to mine but I wouldn’t want those labels, they seem to imply contempt.
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"There is lot more necessary for that. Kennedy was forced on Willow, badly worked out, and basically used to remove her from Buffy so that Spike can have solo screentime with her"
Again, don’t agree. I think it was to give Willow something good in her life to show that she could at least begin to live despite Tara dying on her and as someone else said to try to get us to give a damn about at least one of the potentials.
"Buffy had free will? No, she did not. She was suffering a huge depression. She couldn’t deal with it"
Unless you are screwed up enough to be institutionalised then you have free will. People deal with depression in lots of different ways. Saying I thought Buffy behaved badly does not mean that I am without sympathy for her or that I think she’s a heartless cow. It is a fact that sometimes when you are going through hell you take others along for the ride, I’ve seen people do it in real life. She, like Spike did, acknoweldged this and tried to rectify it the best way she could in season seven.
"Spike doesn’t have a soul but that says nothing about free will. He has all the free will in the world. And he choose to use her"
True, but it does say something about his perspective on life. He couldn’t understand how tormented by guilt she was because he didn’t feel it himself, something which is said in "Never Leave Me". He’s saying look I understand now what was tearing you apart.
"This whole lack of a soul argument is nothing but positive discrimination. If you want that Spike should have been treated equally, you should look to his actions and not to what or who he is"
You have to compare like with like here - you are comparing his actions to those who had the moral equipment to know better so to speak. It’s also down to experience to he hadn’t been in a serious relationship with a person who wasn’t an immoral, insane, sado-masocist before and ergo did not know how to behave towards such a person.
"Buffy never called Xander discusting. She went way further. She said nothing to Xander. She always swallowed her rather angry feelings for him and did as if she was his friend, his sister"
Because she cared about him too much to vent these directly and wanted to spare him pain probably.
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"This became more than apparent in S6 where she doesn’t come to him as friend for her problems, for comfort, but to the man she hates, the man he hates"
Two factors at play here. One Buffy states in "CDWP" - "I didn’t want to be loved" and I think this is true she was too screwed up to handle a real relationship of any sort. You have to have some stable sense of self before you have a real bond with someone else. The second is that she feared Xander’s condemnation. She knew that he would have been shocked by her attraction to Spike and she was right - when he found out the first thing he did was tear into her verbally (which in fairness to him he did apologise for afterwards). How can you turn to someone who you know will condemn you?. You are right, Xander is heroic (no one but an idiot would deny it) but he has his flaws and he does just see red when it comes to men in Buffy’s life that he considers to be unsuitable.
"She asked for his friendship, for his support and denying this from him is much more hurtfull"
She never denied Xander friendship. She was distanced from her friend because she was distanced from life. Everyone around her suffered because of that. That would have happened with or without Spike it was a sympton of the depression. Someone on another board basically left her boyfriend because he was just picking at the relationship all the time and although she loved him she couldn’t stand it anymore. People with depression are not easy to live with. Besides I fail to see how cutting yourself from someone is more hurtful than using their body and then telling them they suck afterwards.
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"Xander had to fight to be supportive for her, Spike got it for free, he got because she hated him"
And you say that she’s wasn’t abusing him.
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"Xander had to fight to be respected as a fellow warrior, something it is doubtful he ever really got"
Yes he did, Buffy told him in "End of Days". "You are my strength, I never would have got this far without you" in "Checkpoint" she replies to a watcher who says Xander doesn’t have any special abilities by mentioning that he’s clocked "more field time than all of them put together. He’s part of the unit".
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"Xander simply had to fight to even be seen by her"
No I think saving her life in Prophercy Girl did that. In season seven she had to focus on the warriors it was a big dangerous fight and she needed to train those who were going to have to physically fight it. The Potentials got most of her attention. She spent a lot of time talking to Wood because she worked with him and she needed someone to talk to about stategy.
" And this was made very painfully clear in First Date and in Empty Spaces where when she in anger tells Giles that the only person she can trust her back with is Spike"
That’s because she’s angry at Giles and the comment is obviously directed at Giles without reference to anyone or anything else.
Look I know Xander’s a hero and that he suffered a lot too. Again, a lot of this is said in the spirit of the general rights of characters. I know you’ve got the right to your opinion but it annoys me it’s so willfully and vindictively negative - every action is interpreted in the worst possible light and not one shread of credit is ever given even for trying. I can’t believe that everything you hate or dislike in the verse wouldn’t have happened if just one character was removed it doesn’t strike me as being very reasonable. The verse is over for the moment, you do not have to watch a Spike movie by all means enjoy the Willow and Ilyria ones if they are separate. Why bother voicing your all consuming hatred in a thread which started about news of something others will appreciate. You don’t like it - fine, vote with "off" switch it’s your right is a consumer as it is mine to watch it.
It’s decent of you but you should say "what I think he did to the show" or "what I believe he did to the show". Look I’m sorry if I was rude but I just think you should know that your opinion is just that. I think that you are scapegoating a character for every issue you had with the later seasons of BtvS and the final seasons of Angel.
This isn’t getting us anywhere you have your opinion I mine. You aren’t going to change your mind and I’m not going to change mind. As the song goes "lets call the whole thing off"
Ok I do not romantize the s.6 relationship. I merely state the abuse went both ways. Yes, of course he was in the wrong but he realised that and tried to change. Again, you are determined to hate him, to blame him for everything so I can’t change. At least my "romantising" has its limits your villification and scapegoating does not.
SPIKE
No. (excited) This’ll change your tune. I came here ’cause I got something to tell you. You were right. Caleb is trying to protect something from you. And I think you were spot on all the way. I think it’s at the vineyard. So? You were right. (she still hasn’t moved or reacted) Buffy?
How can you turn to someone who you know will condemn you?
Okay, I am not going to say the easy shot: because he is right. The whole point of my arguments is not in that Buffy went to Spike and had used Spike. My point is that Spike took advantage of her situation. In the beginning Buffy didn’t have any guilt. So, that’s no argument for her that cauzed her the pain. It’s an argument that only holds later in S6 and most of all in S7. Buffy made a clear choice to go to Spike for comfort and not Xander. And for that I give Xander right that he would be angry.
As for this argument. Xander wouldn’t have condamned her if she had told it him straight away.
And Buffy can abused Spike as much as she can, it makes it only the more using her for Spike. How much do need that she doesn’t love you?? Spike was forcing himself on her, he was demanding love from her. That is wrong and much more wrong than anything she did to him.
Willow, Xander and Giles were used as plotdevices. Willow god something good in her life, but was shoved aside. She didn’t get the necessary characterization. She was a witch and that was it. Giles didn’t get anything but shit. And Xander got nothing at all, except that he lost his eye and even this was not used to his own characterization but as plotdevice. Hell, it was mostly as an excuse to get him out of the show. Xander also didn’t get a closure with Anya, and he was denied to show his true feeling for his lost because there was no time.
All the screentime, all characterdevelopment and all the arclines were about Spike. And the rest had to pay the price. And that in their final season, while they already knew that Spike’s arcline would get continued in AtS and now even in a movie. And the rest continues to get squat. The very thought of this is extremely disturbing.
Ok I know this is pointless but I’m afraid I have to come back on you to a couple of points.
Xander - yes what he condemed her for what was wrong, Buffy knew it was wrong but someone telling you it’s wrong when you already see that doesn’t help. Trust me on this one. I think Buffy is the sort of person who doesn’t like anyone she cares about to have a negative opinion of her. Xander himself saw he’d gone too far in condemming her which is why he apologised.
Why didn’t she approach Xander before it all got out of control? - well she wasn’t going to tell anyone about the being in heaven bit because she didn’t want them to feel guilty, she told Spike partially because he was outside the group, partially because he wasn’t involved her resurection and partially because he asked when on his own. When it leaked out that she been torn out of heaven, Buffy had already kissed Spike moments afterwards - she couldn’t have told Xander as he would have gone balistic even over that. Look Xander’s a hero but he has his faults and whether it’s vamp hatred over what happened to Jessie, what he’s sees and has been told by Giles, just plain jealousy, white knight mentality or morality he sees red when it comes to Buffy and vamps. Buffy did try to tell Willow but Willow was in the grip of her own magical addiction and pain over losing Tara. Xander was also wrapped up in his own doubts about whether he should or should not marry Anya. That’s the point of season six - everyone was a bad guy to a greater or lesser extent, bar poor Tara, because they couldn’t see past their own needs and their own pain. Spike was under the delusion he could shag Buffy into loving him - yes it was wrong, yes it was selfish but he learned from it. Everyone learned from their bad experiences and learned to connect to others, to think beyond themselves and forfill the needs of others not themselves, that’s when things started to get better. Buffy reached out to Dawn pulling herself out depression, Xander reached out to Willow saving her and the world. That’s why I like season seven which is about how that "the quality of mercy" saves everyone through the actions of Willow, Spike and Angel - three individuals who badly needed forgiveness. Willow’s actions in saving the day were dismissed as just magic by you but we saw her doubts beforehand, the reassurance of her lover to overcome them and how was she was released the doubt and guilt which plagued her by her big spell, how instead of pulling her down it lifted her up as it was for the benefit of others.
When it comes to the "having no soul is no excuse" arguement why does this only seems to hold for Spike? You don’t condemn Angel for the acts of Angelius when in all fairness under that opinion you have to. In fact you seem to think quite a lot of Angel who had a soul forced upon him, at least Spike did gain a soul through his own free will, however "selfish" the reasons are. I hate the way that Angel fans apply one set of rules for Angel and another set for Spike, aside from my own character loyalities it doesn’t strike me as being fair.
More specifically - lets see how Spike’s amazing powers of propersy and telepathy come from no more than logic and experience and just paying attention to what’s been said and written on the wall.
"SPIKE No. (excited) This’ll change your tune. I came here ’cause I got something to tell you. You were right. Caleb is trying to protect something from you"
The disaster that was the first attack on the vineyard came because Caleb said "I have something of yours". Everyone apart from Buffy was sceptical about the truth of what he was saying. Pretty much everyone said it’s either not true or the thing he has isn’t important. Giles said "it could be pencil sharper" or words to that effect. I think this included Spike who at the very least argeed with someone else who said that it could well be an attempt to lure Buffy somewhere whilst an attack was launched on the potentials not with her, he refered to it "the old bait and switch". Now remember that sign on the mission which you felt was never mentioned therefore totally unimportant, it said "it is not for you it is only for her to wield" and the guy at the mission said Caleb flew into a blind rage when saw it. See how the two correlate here - Caleb says "I have something of yours", Spike sees that Caleb has taken something which says "it is only for her to wield". Ergo Spike now knows that Caleb took something that Buffy was meant to have and was pissed off when told it wasn’t for him ergo she was right to assume that he did have something of hers and it was important.
"And I think you were spot on all the way. I think it’s at the vineyard. So? You were right. (she still hasn’t moved or reacted) Buffy?"
Buffy rightly deduces that Caleb has something important at the vineyard because "the bad guys go where the power is, right". Spike I think independently forms the same conclusion, after all, both of them know the game. Buffy’s fought evil for seven years, Spike WAS evil for over a century. He was also the king of "what does this interesting gadget do and where do I find it?" school - he always seems to know about where to get stuff that will do stuff - from crosses to restore vampire’s health, to immunity devices for vampires, to wish granting demons in Africa. He probably knows that a bad guy with a funky gadget will ineviatably keep it close and protect it or have it protected until he can figure out how to use it. He’s probably rightly assuming that Caleb is doing what he would have done himself in the past under the circumstances.
Although Spike doesn’t know that it was Buffy’s decision to attack the vineyard for the second time which led to her being kicked out, he knows that the decision to attack the vineyard the first time around wasn’t popular or at least universaly approved of (possibly he even doubted it himself) and he knows what the result of it was in terms of loss of life and Xander’s fate. It is not an unreasonable assumption that the backlash about the decision to attack the vineyard the first time around led to her being rounded on because people blamed her for that and thought she was wrong. He may not even have guessed about the proposed second attack for his remarks to make sense in that context.
I’m going to show that you can see past a dislike of a character to see what’s good about them. It was Riley who gave Buffy the strength to break out of the vicious circle she’d fallen into in season six and unlike Xander he didn’t condemn her (mainly because with his own dalience with the dark side being bitten by the vamps maybe he understood) but told her she was still the same person despite all the stuff going on around her and ultimately that she was better than the circumstances in which she found herself. He gave her some self belief and seemed to understand implictly that she was in a bad place because her life had crashed. There you go - a boring character I don’t like does some real good - you can dislike a character without believing everything they do is wrong, you just got to be reasonable and try to see the world through their eyes. I don’t take issue with your dislike of Spike, with the fact that in your opinion he got too much screen time but I hate the way he’s to blame for everything and never did or tried to one right thing and the way you are determined to see everything he does in the worse possible light. It’s a completely unreasonable opinion to have about a character, any character, and although I’ll never change it, I can’t let it stand unchallenged. You are not going to change my mind anymore than I’m going to change yours so lets just drop this.
You know something I’ve just had an ephihany here. Hatred isn’t good - I seen in real life people trash their lives over hate of others. Yes I know this isn’t a real person but a writer once said "those who burn books then start burning people". I hope that you are never as unreasonable like this to a real person then it won’t just be them who suffers. Just a thought - you may want to hang onto. You know I’ve never understood the hatred people have for fictional characters just like I don’t get it in real life - why do something so negative. You don’t like what happened to the last seasons of the verse - fine get over it, don’t watch the Spike film when it comes out, why waste your time being angry about it and bitching about it. Why waste your life like that - I’m not sure how much longer I’m going to keep up this dance of death for that very reason. Go find something else you enjoy :-).
Ok, mods I realise that you may not want to post my last post on the grounds you want to nip an arguement which is becoming increasingly a dance of death of circular arguement between two stubborn people but I think I do have the right for my arguements to be uploaded onto this thread. Pretty please could you do this for me.
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